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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:12 pm
 


My concern is that to "compete" inherently implies that there will inevitably (andalways) be winners and losers. Trade and business managed based on "cooperation" (as I think was just implied) would be ideal but far removed from our collective values as to be impractical to adapt to and easy to exploit.

On the flip side of the coin, Scape what are your thoughts on purely socialist programs that [at least presumably] aim to uphold the benefit of education, health, justice and social systems before trade? Perhaps like the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas as recently proposed by Venezuela and Cuba:

ALBA: Bolivarian Alternative for Latin America and the Caribbean


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 10:06 pm
 


At 1st glance this looks to be exactly what I have been advocating for. I would like to know more on it. Can you give me your take on the program?


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 5:55 am
 


Today will be particularly busy, but I would definitely be happy to speak my mind out later in the evening.

With luck, others will comment during the interim -- otherwise, please hold that thought for a couple of hours then.... ^_^


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 11:33 pm
 


$1:
ALBA appeals to the egalitarian principles of justice and equality that are innate in human beings, the well-being of the most dispossessed sectors of society, and a reinvigorated sense of solidarity toward the underdeveloped countries of the western hemisphere, so that with the required assistance, they can enter into trade negotiations on more favorable terms than has been the case under the dictates of developed countries.


It's always been something of my mantra to say that trade should be a LUXURY, not a necessity. Even if you were to live on the poorest, most isolated most resource-deficient island in the world, it should really be expected that you can sustain yourself if you want the privilege of being called an "inhabitant". Otherwise, I'd strongly reconsider you current disposition: "How did you get there?", " Why are you still there?" and "What are you doing about it?"

$1:
By employing more effective mechanisms to eradicate poverty, ALBA—as proposed by the Venezuelan government—provides a counterweight to the policies and goals of the FTAA. This alternative model also identifies the most crucial impediments to achieve a genuine regional integration that transcends the prerogatives of the transnational corporations. One of the obstacles to confront is the deep disparity that exists in development between the countries of the hemisphere, whereby poor countries such as Haiti or Bolivia are compelled to compete with the world’s leading economic power. In order to help overcome trade disadvantages, ALBA pushes for solidarity with the economically weakest countries, with the aim of achieving a free trade area in which all of its members benefit (a win-win alliance).


It should be noted that ALBA is meant to be set up specifically as an alternative rather than a direct afront to Free Trade Area of the Americas (or ALCA, "Área de Libre Comercio de las Américas, or ZLEA, " Zone de libre-échange des Amériques"). Perhaps a nod to the fact that FTAA may have its benefit (perhaps at least to developed nations with well-instituted oligarchs).

Reading this passage reminds me of the predicament of the quintessential "Main Street USA". MS USA shops re generally mom-pop, long-standing, localized, and specialized, and may include some chains interspersed throughout. For whatever reason, a hypermart is opened nearby despite local opposition. Some consumers flock there, but most generally stay away out of a "Buy Local" sense of pride and/or a disdain of the hypermart. Trend continues for a while, but always underlying the fact that these smaller MS USA shops are competing against a multi-billion dollar giant with ample sway in wholesale prices. Eventually, economic attrition (brought about partially by the theme of your thread, "falling real wages") wins out and nearly all consumers are forced to buy from the hypermart or any alterative cheap source. MS USA shops, which generally are not cheap, are forced to close. And either Main Street ends up being privatized and converted to a sleek but hollow plaza riddled with infinitely-repeating chain stores; or it stays closed and turns into a brown area, the decayed remnants of a time of greater economic equality.

Would it be too simplistic to compare this microcosm of economic attrition to the greater disadvantages faced by developing countries. And on the flip side of the coin, how would we visualize the ALBA equivalent at the local level?

$1:
Venezuela has voiced the need for identifying the economies with the greatest deficiencies and their principle requirements, arguing for a transfer of resources to the most underdeveloped countries so that these may develop the economic infrastructure they require to compete on more favorable terms with more developed economies. In order to do this, the corner stone in the design of the ALBA is the proposal for a “Compensatory Fund for Structural Convergence,” which would manage and distribute financial aid to the most economically vulnerable countries.


Hopefully the CFSC doesn't accidentally turn into another IMF. In any case, this paragraph respresents the first flash point topic in the ALBA discussion. In a sense providing aid to developing countries is already policy, but hardly action. As i conjectured before, to "cooperate" [honestly] in order to "compete" [honestly] is too alien a concept -- the temptation to take advantage and secure your country's lead over another is far too great. While such a socialist program is meant to 'shift' the existing culture, it's not meant to be an easy ride even for a powerful nation. Cuba and Venezuela happen to be too small economically and militarily, and too villified, to carry much convincive sway in the West. Instead, any sway that WOULD result from even a moderately successful trade and social union of South, Central and Carribean countries would likely be towards greater hostility. Perhaps in line with the Red Scares of the early 20th.

....

I'd continue with the rest of the article, but stamina is at absolute 0 and [increasingly] so is coherence. X_x

Hopefully next time I show up, I'll bring links to more reference material on ALBA. ^_^


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 7:48 pm
 


I wonder how ALBA would handle this?


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 10:18 am
 


UPDATE ON ARTICLE ABOVE: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4550773.stm

Wow, I wonder how you'd say "Speak of the devil..." in Portugese? ^_^'

$1:
Agriculture Minister Roberto Rodrigues urged Lula to focus on big agricultural producers, rather than peasant farmers, to generate economic growth needed to shrink Brazil's wealth inequalities, which are the worst in Latin America.

"The MST's flawed model of farming doesn't generate enough for families to subsist. Brazil doesn't have the luxury to invest in it any more," said Joao Sampaio, head of the Brazilian Rural Society which represents big farmers.


Call me ignorant in the ways of social planning, but doesn't this sound just a tad bit oxymoronic? I mean, in order to REDUCE wealth inequality in Brazil, you want to give the wealthy MORE money? I mean, if I were a rich oligarch and I was given a shotload of money on top of my current obscenely-large pile, would I A) reinvest it into my home country so that, in 10-15 years, I can make my countrymen rich-enough to sustain my massive profit-making schemes, or B) move OUT of the country NOW so I can rub elbows with richer consumers and other fellow oligarchs (and their sweet political favors,... Yum! ^_^). Even in the US, most large businesses have no qualms with outsourcing even though they receive the bulk of tax breaks.

And from what angle is this Sampaio fellow looking at "subsistence"? If he's looking at it from a market approach (which is likely), then yes he's right -- you can't have the whole country selling vegetables to each other any more than you can have the whole country do each other's laundry. But I wonder if he could conceive the notion that someone might want to have a farm to sustain himself and his family. Once a person has all his basic needs covered (decent food, water, shelter, clothing), then he's free to contribute his time, money, skills and children to whatever the government wants him to.

ALBA would probably handle this exactly as MST recommended, though hopefully with well-defined provisions regarding health, education, justice, technology (mentioned in the article) and environmental conservation. Reasoning probably goes that once the people are sufficiently well-raised and educated, they'll be able to contribute even more to the economic development of the country by improving farm efficiency and technology (perhaps through phytofarming or aquaculture, among other ambitions?) and thus increasing yield for export to sustain an already-improved standard of living. Given the size, political-weight and resource-richness of the country, this possibility is likelier for Brazil than for deprived Cuba which just can't seem to get a break.


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 10:19 am
 


UPDATE ON ARTICLE ABOVE: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4550773.stm

Wow, I wonder how you'd say "Speak of the devil..." in Portugese? ^_^'

$1:
Agriculture Minister Roberto Rodrigues urged Lula to focus on big agricultural producers, rather than peasant farmers, to generate economic growth needed to shrink Brazil's wealth inequalities, which are the worst in Latin America.

"The MST's flawed model of farming doesn't generate enough for families to subsist. Brazil doesn't have the luxury to invest in it any more," said Joao Sampaio, head of the Brazilian Rural Society which represents big farmers.


Call me ignorant in the ways of social planning, but doesn't this sound just a tad bit oxymoronic? I mean, in order to REDUCE wealth inequality in Brazil, you want to give the wealthy MORE money? I mean, if I were a rich oligarch and I was given a shotload of money on top of my current obscenely-large pile, would I A) reinvest it into my home country so that, in 10-15 years, I can make my countrymen rich-enough to sustain my massive profit-making schemes, or B) move OUT of the country NOW so I can rub elbows with richer consumers and other fellow oligarchs (and their sweet political favors,... Yum! ^_^). Even in the US, most large businesses have no qualms with outsourcing even though they receive the bulk of tax breaks.

And from what angle is this Sampaio fellow looking at "subsistence"? If he's looking at it from a market approach (which is likely), then yes he's right -- you can't have the whole country selling vegetables to each other any more than you can have the whole country do each other's laundry. But I wonder if he could conceive the notion that someone might want to have a farm to sustain himself and his family. Once a person has all his basic needs covered (decent food, water, shelter, clothing), then he's free to contribute his time, money, skills and children to whatever the government wants him to.

ALBA would probably handle this exactly as MST recommended, though hopefully with well-defined provisions regarding health, education, justice, technology (mentioned in the article) and environmental conservation. Reasoning probably goes that once the people are sufficiently well-raised and educated, they'll be able to contribute even more to the economic development of the country by improving farm efficiency and technology (perhaps through phytofarming or aquaculture, among other ambitions?) and thus increasing yield for export to sustain an already-improved standard of living. Given the size, political-weight and resource-richness of the country, this possibility is likelier for Brazil than for deprived Cuba which just can't seem to get a break.


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