[andyt]

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/Do-Canadians-pay-taxes-investopediawp-3993417512.html

$1:

Using an average is also problematic as the very poor and the very rich skew it on both ends. In general, lower income Canadians pay less in tax for the services they receive and rich Americans are better off than rich Canadians.

Good, but we could do better.

[Canadian_Mind]

I though, when averaged out, the Americans actually paid slightly more taxes for services than we did (but by only 1% point).

[Pseudonym]

andyt andyt:

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/Do-Canadians-pay-taxes-investopediawp-3993417512.html

$1:

Using an average is also problematic as the very poor and the very rich skew it on both ends. In general, lower income Canadians pay less in tax for the services they receive and rich Americans are better off than rich Canadians.

Good, but we could do better.

That quote mixes up metrics for measurement. I think a better comparison would be:
In general, lower income Canadians pay less in tax than lower income Americans and rich Americans pay more in tax for the services they receive than rich Canadians.
Or:
In general, lower income Canadians are better off than lower income Americans and rich Americans are better off than rich Canadians.

Does that make sense? I think that quote switches up comparisons, which makes me hesitant to give it creedence.

[andyt]

I think they're saying the same thing you are. Remember that lower income Canadians get Medicare for "free" whereas most low income working Americans will have very little healthcare. So the Americans may pay a bit less tax, but don't get the same services that Canadians do. Same with EI - American workers don't pay for it, but they get less benefits than Canadians, and EI is really only relevant for lower income workers.

At the top end, Americans can deduct their mortgages, so that's a big kick in the pants for better off Americans. They would mostly have insurance at work, I'm not sure that this study took into account how much their employer has to pay, which he could pay them in wages instead if he didn't have that expense. But it does sound like rich Americans get to keep more of their money than rich Canadians.

[Lemmy]

Americans pay less tax, but have lower disposable incomes because their private health-care insurance costs over-eat the tax savings difference.

[Caelon]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Americans pay less tax, but have lower disposable incomes because their private health-care insurance costs over-eat the tax savings difference.

When I have talked to Americans and included health care then for the middle income group it seemed to be roughly the same net disposable income. The cost of health care insurance ate up the difference in tax rates. Net, net there did not seem to be a lot of difference.

[peck420]

http://slumbuddy.wordpress.com/2011/03/20/comparison-of-us-and-canadian-tax-rates-for-2010/

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

At the top end, Americans can deduct their mortgages

So you think just because someone owns a home they're in the top end of income earners? Your definition of well off and wealthy seems a little skewed from the rest of the populations. Most of these homeowners are middle class, earning only 50 - 120 K a year, usually as a combined family income) the ones who already pay the lion's share of the tax burden. From where I sit, these folks are getting by, not living it up like you seem to think they are.

[andyt]

The median US family income in 2009 was $49,777. (wiki)

$1:

The top 5 percent (of Americans) pay well over half the income taxes. The top 10 percent pay 68 percent of the tab.

(http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes) 15.73% of Americans households earn over $100,000 a year.

The higher your income, the larger house you are likely to have. If you're smart, in the US you'll keep a high mortgage on it. That's the point, higher income earners to better in the US because they have more deductions available for them - a big one being their mortgage.

You want to weep for the top 15%, be my guest. They're certainly doing much better than the rest. You feel better squeezing those below those 15%, that's your right. You think it's best to squeeze those on the bottom, it doesn't really help that much because there's so little money there. But that squeezing is going to cost you lots of money in legal and health costs and in social breakdown. But what the fuck eh? Just buy a house in a gated community and you can ignore all those poor dicks - for a while.

[raydan]

Who's cares if we pay more... we live in Canada.
That makes up for everything.


And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

[peck420]

I'm going to ignore Provincial and State taxes for a moment (too many different sets) and focus on purely Federal. I am also assuming parity on the dollar, it is close enough.

Assume income of $100,000 (for simplicity)

Canada:
<$41,544 Tax 15% $6,231.60
$41,544<>$83,088 Tax 22% $9,139.68
$83,088<>$128,800 Tax 26% $4,397.12
>$128,800 Tax 29% $0

Federal Tax Paid: $19,768.40

USA:
<$8,375 Tax 10% $837.5
$8,375<>$34,000 Tax 15% $3,843.75
$34,000<>$82,400 Tax 25% $12,100
$82,400<>$171,850 Tax 28% $4,928
$171,850<>$373,650 Tax 33% $0
>$373,650 Tax 35% $0

Federal Tax Paid: $21,709.25

And it gets worse from there.

There are plenty (too many) loopholes and write offs in both systems to bring this down. However, at $100,000, we already pay less Federal.

Feel free to draw your own conlusions.

Edit to add:
I think that our wealthy have it better than their American counterparts. Our taxes cap at 29%. The US still has 2 more tax brackets to go, bringing it up to a max of 35% at the Federal level.

[BartSimpson]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Americans pay less tax, but have lower disposable incomes because their private health-care insurance costs over-eat the tax savings difference.

Not true. Most Americans still get their private medical insurance via their employer or union as a non-taxed benefit. However, Obamacare will soon add a 40% tax on those people who pay the highest premiums because the f*cking Democrats think those people are getting 'premium' health care when in fact it is senior citizens who are paying those rates and the result will be forcing millions of seniors into Obamacare.

[bootlegga]

My guess would be that a lot of 'user fees' American pay are covered by taxes here in Canada (co-pays for health care & toll roads are two examples that come to mind).

I think it's pretty close overall, with a slight edge in lower taxes for Americans.

In the end, I attribute it to cultural differences.

[BartSimpson]

bootlegga bootlegga:

My guess would be that a lot of 'user fees' American pay are covered by taxes here in Canada (co-pays for health care & toll roads are two examples that come to mind).

I think it's pretty close overall, with a slight edge in lower taxes for Americans.

In the end, I attribute it to cultural differences.

Toll roads are mostly an East coast issue. The tolls were a way to pay off the construction bonds and, in a few cases, the toll booths came down after the roads were paid for. In some states they wanted to keep the money flowing so the toll booths stayed up.

Co-pays for health care are a cost-control measure to prevent people from using their care frivolously. Most health care systems about break even on the cost of managing copays from the revenue they generate.

In some instances, though, the problem is not a 'co-pay' but a fake insurance company that doesn't want to deliver on what it promised.

Plenty of people tell me how expensive my health plan is but then when I need something I get it. There's cheaper plans but then they don't pay for anything...which is how they keep costs down.

It's like saying one place charges $75 for a decent steak dinner while another charges $5.

A $5 steak dinner sounds great until you find out that you only get a 50 gram steak and if you want sides they cost $10 each and then you also have to pay a fee for the knife and fork and you'll be sure to know that plates and napkins are not included.

Me, I'd just as soon pay one realistic fee and get what I want.

[bootlegga]

Fair enough Bart, but my point is that what is paid for in Canada by everyone, is paid for by users in the US in the form of user fees.

Again, that points to cultural differences - culturally Canadians generally are more willing to pay taxes so that everyone receives a certain level of services, while in the US, people get what they can afford.

In the end, Americans are more individualistic than Canadians. Neither cultural POV is wrong, just different.