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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:06 pm
 


I notice that Canadians seem to be very protective of their independence and sovereignty from us in the United States. Is this feeling genuine? And if so, why? I'm not talking about cultural distinctiveness, I'm talking about Canada's out and out political independence as a sovereign state.

No one in the United States has any serious interest in annexing Canada. American conservatives despise Canada, and the idea of adding what would inevitably turn out to be almost a dozen new left-leaning states to the United States would terrify them (ironically, I suspect that if Canada were part of the United States, it could have stopped the Iraq War). American liberals find the idea of annexation of an independent nation to be abhorrent, and many really want Canada to remain separate as a place to which to escape if some right wing extremist takes over in this country. We don't want to have to deal with all the baggage associated with all the Quebec related issues, and we certainly don't want to have to start labeling things in French. In the insular world of American politics, Canada is not even on the radar. Practically no prominent politicians at the federal level routinely mention Canada. Conservative politicians tend to reserve most of their ire with our allies for France, not you. More Americans probably know who the prime minister of the UK is than know the prime minister of Canada. If the recent behavior of the US State Department is anything to go by, our government apparently doesn't trust your government to keep terrorists off the continent. We do have some bad social policies that the Canadian government may be tempted to emulate, but that's not the same as us threatening your independence.

Given all this, where do some Canadians come away with the idea that the US is somehow a threat to Canadian sovereignty? It doesn't seem to be rooted in anything Americans are actually saying or doing. Is such talk really serious? Listening to people like this, http://www.canadians.org/about/BOD/visi ... round.html, you'd think that tanks were ready to roll across the border!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:15 pm
 


Countless countries have had their sovereignty undermined by the US, without being annexed.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:17 pm
 


I haven’t lost one second of sleep because I thought the US was going to annex Canada. Although many of the unaware feel threatened for god knows what reason. When overseas however I would certainly correct someone who thought I was American.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:20 pm
 


Streaker Streaker:
Countless countries have had their sovereignty undermined by the US, without being annexed.


And what exactly does Canada have in common with those countries?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:28 pm
 


rhesusman rhesusman:
Streaker Streaker:
Countless countries have had their sovereignty undermined by the US, without being annexed.


And what exactly does Canada have in common with those countries?


American lack of respect for our sovereignty.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:28 pm
 


I could care less either way. Personally I like Canada as an independant nation, however if we were to join tomorrow would welcome the take over.

http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/index.htm


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:28 pm
 


"Ask not what your country can do for you - Ask what you can do for your country. Ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." - John F. Kennedy


North Americans in both Canada and the United States are free and prosperous people, proud of their national histories and achievements – so why should we attempt to change things? One could argue the essential question should not be why, but why not? Why not try to create history by enlarging the nation and generating greater wealth, progression and unity within this diverse continent?

At the same time, there are still a number of specific reasons why we should favor this ambitious idea of a United North America. The main arguments can be split up into these five categories: Economics, Defense, Politics, History and Culture.


Economics

The economic case for unity is perhaps the easiest and most obvious argument to make, at least in terms of the sheer practical benefits it would provide to the average North American. According to the Economics Department of the Bank of Montreal, "one of the critical benefits of greater economic integration for Canadians [with the US] is the prospect of higher living standards...”. By tearing down obstacles at the Canada-US border put in place by both governments, inevitably this will result in increased trade, which in turn benefits producers and consumers, employers and employees. The main benefactors of borders, by contrast, are those who either profit from lack of competition or those who collect duties, tariffs and other expenses – primarily the governments of Canada and the United States.

Just as decreased taxation can actually result in increased tax revenues for governments, elimination of trade restrictions would actually result in increased trade, economic stimulus, further increased government revenues and most importantly, increased prosperity for the average North American. Overall, the removing of myriads of redundant agencies and consolidating everything from budgets to currencies would eliminate waste and streamline the North American economic engine.


Defense

North American air, space and sea are already under the aegis of NORAD, a permanent agreement binding the security of Canada and the United States together domestically. Abroad, the two countries work together militarily through organizations such as NATO. Such arrangements have helped create an integrated, interoperable and cooperative North American security force within our continent and throughout the world. However, the overall defensive capability of North America is not enhanced, but rather diminished, by the fact that we continue to have two sets of military and government departments dedicated to our joint internal security. The burden of nearly doubling the administrative costs may have a debatable effect on the security of the continent.

Yet, it is clear that we are wasting personnel by spreading our border patrols across the vast 5,500 mile border that Canada and the US share. The potential loss of misusing forces is much more difficult to measure, but just as the 9/11 hijackers revealed, an act of terrorism can severely damage the integrity of the continent. Another incident could easily occur if we are not vigilant and wise in deploying our resources. Security and terrorist threats do not come to Canada from United States or vice-versa, but from overseas. Removing unnecessary land and sea patrols and rather directing them to protecting airports and harbors from outside threats would have the doubled effect of enhancing our security and strengthening the free flow of travel and trade between the regions of North America.


Politics

Democracy is only given meaning through the expressed ideas and visions of the people. A democracy of one person is no democracy at all, but a democracy of a million people is a powerful force. Undoubtedly, the United States holds the greatest political influence in the world largely because of its people power. The added voices of Canadians could only improve democracy by reinvigorating the republic with new thoughts and concepts.

From a canadian perspective, Canadians would gain a seat in the most powerful halls of government and finally have a voice in setting the course for the continent and the world. Economics and security are often discussed in relation to continental integration, and treaties turn these discussions into realities. Yet, too often the political influence of the US over Canada increases as a result of these agreements while Canadians remain helpless to similarly influence the US. The softwood lumber dispute and the mad cow crisis are perfect case examples of such a relationship.

Prosperity and security are almost meaningless if no vehicle exists to make internal changes by democratic initiative; for Canadians, this is increasingly the case. Globalization is not something that can be reversed, but the political gap can be overcome if Canadians make their voices heard by sending Canadian congressmen to Washington DC.


History and Culture

History and culture are often used as tools to segregate people, promote nationalism and encourage division. This has certainly been the case for the past 250 years of Canadian and USAmerican history. In reality, however, it is our shared history and culture that should unite the people of North America together. Unlike the nations of Europe who are divided among deep linguistic and religious lines that have formed over centuries of history, Canada and the United States are relatively new countries that share common languages, religions and people. Indeed, we are a pattern of cultures woven from a common thread.

The border that divides us today was not created out of any interminable or irresolvable issues. It was instead simply a line drawn by an imperial power that has long since left the shores of North America. While the political disputes of the 18th Century have long since disappeared, their legacy continues to live on in the form of the border. A United North America would finally heal the wound of the first civil war that divided the people of North America, and bring about a reunion of historical proportions.

BUT I'LL TAKE THIS QUESTION TO A NEW THREAD.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:31 pm
 


People may feel this way because of the Conservatives and their wanting to almost "copy" policies they have.

This also includes a study done years ago about getting rid of our dollar, and using the American greenback.

NO!

We are different from the Americans in our policies about health care, foreign relations, as well as other non-political things in our society.

They push their ideas in their TV shows and commercials as if they are the "right" way to do things.

NOT!!!!

:rock:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:32 pm
 


Streaker Streaker:
rhesusman rhesusman:
Streaker Streaker:
Countless countries have had their sovereignty undermined by the US, without being annexed.


And what exactly does Canada have in common with those countries?


American lack of respect for our sovereignty.


What evidence do you have of American interest in undermining Canadian sovereignty?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:35 pm
 


rhesusman rhesusman:
I notice that Canadians seem to be very protective of their independence and sovereignty from us in the United States. Is this feeling genuine? And if so, why? I'm not talking about cultural distinctiveness, I'm talking about Canada's out and out political independence as a sovereign state.

No one in the United States has any serious interest in annexing Canada. American conservatives despise Canada, and the idea of adding what would inevitably turn out to be almost a dozen new left-leaning states to the United States would terrify them (ironically, I suspect that if Canada were part of the United States, it could have stopped the Iraq War). American liberals find the idea of annexation of an independent nation to be abhorrent, and many really want Canada to remain separate as a place to which to escape if some right wing extremist takes over in this country. We don't want to have to deal with all the baggage associated with all the Quebec related issues, and we certainly don't want to have to start labeling things in French. In the insular world of American politics, Canada is not even on the radar. Practically no prominent politicians at the federal level routinely mention Canada. Conservative politicians tend to reserve most of their ire with our allies for France, not you. More Americans probably know who the prime minister of the UK is than know the prime minister of Canada. If the recent behavior of the US State Department is anything to go by, our government apparently doesn't trust your government to keep terrorists off the continent. We do have some bad social policies that the Canadian government may be tempted to emulate, but that's not the same as us threatening your independence.

Given all this, where do some Canadians come away with the idea that the US is somehow a threat to Canadian sovereignty? It doesn't seem to be rooted in anything Americans are actually saying or doing. Is such talk really serious? Listening to people like this, http://www.canadians.org/about/BOD/visi ... round.html, you'd think that tanks were ready to roll across the border!


Interesting post. For the fact that there is more left wing people in Canada than in the US, that is true, but Canadians, inside the US, would feel more how is it to be the number 1 power of humanity, and the incomfort related to it. For me it’s obvious that, over the years, the right wing would grow in what is now called Canada. If you want not to care about french, just let Quebec be an independant country. This little part of North America is no big deal in geo-strategic concerns, and their culture is really different, what is already a problem with english people of Canada. In the other hand, the english culture in Canada is very close to the US culture. Also, we would still have a close economy (thanks NAFTA), so I see no issue with letting Quebec be an independant state. Also, Quebec could be the little paradise where you could go if USA become too crazy ! :D


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:35 pm
 


It's not the feeling of annexation.

Other then the North American Union and SPP, I have no fears of Annexation by America.

No, America doesn't want to own us. We are their... Rental garage.

We store their things basically. They use us for their economy. You know, American corporations. We give them what they want, resources and such, they completely own Canada.

And Canadians, such as myself, are hurt and insulted that nothing is "Canadian" anymore in this country.

The threatened feeling we feel is... We just want to be Canadian. It's why we grasp so lovingly to things like Tim Hortons. Or Hockey. It's why we are so proud of a silly beer companies.

And it's why it kills us when we find out that all of those things... Are now American owned.

We just kinda feel like everything we have isn't ours. We feel as if we are living in a hotel room. We don't own the room, but we are there.

It's like living in a house where everything from the carpets to the toaster isn't yours. You own nothing. Except a piece of paper that says that the land the house is on is yours.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:35 pm
 


rhesusman rhesusman:
Streaker Streaker:
rhesusman rhesusman:

And what exactly does Canada have in common with those countries?


American lack of respect for our sovereignty.


What evidence do you have of American interest in undermining Canadian sovereignty?


Two words: Northwest Passage.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:39 pm
 


I understand we are a proud people but worried about a US invassion heck no we are allies the best allies the world has seen and some countries could do well taking a few lessons from CA and US.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:43 pm
 


Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:
It's not the feeling of annexation.

Other then the North American Union and SPP, I have no fears of Annexation by America.

No, America doesn't want to own us. We are their... Rental garage.

We store their things basically. They use us for their economy. You know, American corporations. We give them what they want, resources and such, they completely own Canada.

And Canadians, such as myself, are hurt and insulted that nothing is "Canadian" anymore in this country.

The threatened feeling we feel is... We just want to be Canadian. It's why we grasp so lovingly to things like Tim Hortons. Or Hockey. It's why we are so proud of a silly beer companies.

And it's why it kills us when we find out that all of those things... Are now American owned.

We just kinda feel like everything we have isn't ours. We feel as if we are living in a hotel room. We don't own the room, but we are there.

It's like living in a house where everything from the carpets to the toaster isn't yours. You own nothing. Except a piece of paper that says that the land the house is on is yours.


America has basically become the globalized culture. As everyone becomes more interconnected, it seems that America is taking over, it's not. It's just that being the first to globalized means you have more influence to at the beginning.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:47 pm
 


The US did invade us once and attempt to conquer Canada in 1812. However, we gave them an ASS-WHOMPIN' they won't soon forget. Well, actually they did forget it. It usually only manges a couple of lines in American history books. Still, je me souviens.


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