[whelan costen]

For mararc, re: Mary's 'free will' explained per the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 494; 'At the announcement that she would give birth to the 'Son of the Most High' without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that ''with God nothing will be impossible' "Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; Let it be one to me according to your word." Thus giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for slavation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her....'<br /> <br /> Also, from ccc 490 ...'The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as 'full of grace'. In fact in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement...it is necessary that she be wholly borne by god's grace.'<br /> <br /> and ccc 484 ...'Mary was invited to conceive him in whom the 'whole fullness of deity' would dwell 'bodily'.' <br /> <br /> I am not sure if that is where I originally got the info from, but it stands to reason that if she gave a response she was also asked permission, and that why ask if there was no choice? If you need more Biblicly speaking, I will search next chance I get.<br /> <br /> The other thing I might add to my previous response to Milton, and this is not found in text, but rather my own belief, although others may see it the same way; the devil was also given free will, and he chose hell, 'hell' being the lack of God, and knowing that he could never enjoy what he had in the past, and that Adam and Eve were enjoying everything, including walking and talking with God, the devil was jealous. That is something which Adam and Eve did not know before they fell; the devil tempted them with a lie, telling them that although God had forbidden them to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil it wouldn't hurt them. But obviously if you don't know the difference, you don't know how it will hurt you, and it disobeying they did learn what evil was, and we've been living with it ever since. I do think that we know who will win the battle, and I do think that when it is over God wants all his creatures in heaven with Him for eternity, and I also think that the devil wants to deny us that joy, because he will not be there. Misery loves company!<br /> <br /> So when we chose evil, we are basicly chosing it over the promise of eternity. But when we die, I don't think we are judged by God, I think he gives us the gift to see, and to chose, and because at that point we won't be capable of lying, we will chose what we chose all along. That is why I don't believe that we must follow a certain religion to get into heaven, God will not be measuring us by our club memberships, he'll be allowing us to say what we deserve, and in saying that we must remember to ask him for mercy, so that if we have made some bad choices, but we are truly sorry for them, he will forgive us. I chose RC because I believe what it teaches, it supports my beliefs and I am comfortable living my life with the challenges and teachings, sometimes I am uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean it is wrong. <br /> <br /> I don't think that someone who has had a truly sadisticly joyful life of impoverishing others and spreading hate, pain and suffering or standing and watching it happen, without trying to do something to make life better, and only sought glory and riches for themselves, will be able to look God in the eye and say, 'sorry' sincerely. So the saying, it is better to have tried and failed, then to have never tried is true for me. Besides if you aspire to goodness and there is no God, and no heaven what have you lost? On the other hand if you aspire to create hell on earth for others, and there is a God and a hell after this earth, you have lost everything! Again that is my belief.

[Marcarc]

Lots of good stuff in there, thanks for all the info.

[Milton]

Thanks for transcribing what you think Catherine.<br /> <br /> I believe that the universe is God and that God(the sum of all our conciously apprehended and comprehended thoughts plus what we don't know ) is intelligence. The aggregate of all the events happening in the universe now, ( it is always now ), is one. The numbering system begins and ends at one, ie. the smallest discernable event to the aggregate of all the events taking place now.<br /> <br /> It seems to me that we are God. Our problems stem from having to make our way in a largely uncharted universe from scratch. Those that went before us have left us stories of how they saw the universe and some of them insist that we see it their way or else! I see no reason to assume that our forebears understood the universe. They have always resorted to force to ensure that their ideas (I gods) are conformed to. If there is a heavan I think it will be one that we make here on Earth and the same goes for hell. When you die your body disassembles itself. Your brain, which stores all your memories, disassembles. The captain abandons ship! The captain is once again the one and the many and has no way to tell which one of the many. <br /> <br />

[samuel]

Buddhists view gods and the notion of a God as being inferior to humans in terms of wisdom and humans who believe in them as weak:<br /> <br /> The gods are all eternal scoundrels<br /> Incapable of dissolving the suffering of impermanence.<br /> Those who serve them and venerate them<br /> May even in this world sink into a sea of sorrow.<br /> We know the gods are false and have no concrete being;<br /> Therefore the wise man believes them not<br /> The fate of the world depends on causes and conditions<br /> Therefore the wise man may not rely on gods.<br /> <br /> ~Nargarjuna

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] Buddhists view gods and the notion of a God as being inferior to humans in terms of wisdom and humans who believe in them as weak[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> And as the Zen Master warns us :<br /> <br /> "If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him!" <br /> <br /> Nothing outside of us is real. Nothing more can be obtained than what we already have; Buddhahood is already within reach, all we have to do is to recognize it. So killing the Buddha (Christ, Allah, Jehovah etc...) is meant as the destruction that anything outside ourselves can save us. By killing the Buddha, we become solely responsible for our search for meaning, without masters but ourselves to light the way and in the acceptance of full responsibility for what we do or not do. <br /> <br />

[samuel]

Buddhism is pretttty cool. No gender, cultural or faith based discrimination, no implications of what is good or evil, no worshipping of figures except oneself and I could go on and on. What's even more amazing is that one of the world's oldest "religion" is also one that would best fit in modern times. Too bad humanity has yet to reach...modern times <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/cool.gif' alt='Cool'>

[N Say]

how are women treated in Buddism? it seems like women generally get treated like shit when the god is a man (like with Christianity), but with polytheistic religions where there are important female gods, etc women have important jobs in society. indian, egyptian & pagan women were much better off than under christianity because they all had female deities who were powerful, etc & nobody would think of treating them like shit.

[samuel]

Self edited for dumbass misinterpretation of N Say's comment. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/redface.gif' alt='Oops!'>

[whelan costen]

NSAY, I don't actually think that Christianity teaches any 'treating women like shit' theology. In fact the Blessed Virgin is highly regarded, and we believe she is the Mother of God, so the teaching is not what you think, it is as often is, the political aspects, which are interpreted by often male, and sometimes oppressive manmade ideas. I don't feel a negative in being a women practicing RC, nor do I feel the need for women priests etc, as some people do. Actually I think women take on many roles of authority, and the priest isn't actually an authority figure or all powerful, he is a servant of the people, including the Pope, it is just our interpretation that gives them power in our day to day lives. It isn't real, God is all powerful, not man, nor woman. I guess there may be some branches of Christianity that are negative towards women(as you say, and is often declared) but I haven't seen it myself.<br /> <br /> I think any organization, or belief system can be exploited for personal gain, if someone is corrupt and has the will to do so. Not just religion, anything.

[samuel]

Whelan Costen, what does Christianity tell you of homosexuality and what are the directives about God's children who take part in it?

[whelan costen]

Samuel, the short answer is 'love the sinner and hate the sin'. Christianity teaches that the sex act is for the purpose of honouring God through the openness of procreation. Sex for the purpose of self gratification as the only purpose is a sin, or contrary to God's plan. <br /> <br /> So if a person wants to follow God's plan, and felt contrary to it, they would be carrying a cross by denying their personal urge and desires, or burden which is not so different from other burdens carried by many. Just because it feels good, or feels right does not make it part of his plan. Everything we do, has a byproduct which fulfills his plan, whether it is our urge to eat, drink, which ensures our survival or the involuntary act of breathing. But the natural urges can and do become part of our uncontrolled desires as well, like overeating. <br /> <br /> Personally, I do not understand the issue, I don't claim to be an expert on why some people feel the attraction for same sex unions, and I won't judge the people. There are too many complex issues involved, like if it is wrong then why would God make people with those desires? I don't know. I think that each person must chose what is right for them, as in the end, they will be answering to God. There are many issues which are complicated, and may not be right for another, but they are right for me. I don't believe in abortion either, but I am not going to tell someone else they are going to hell for murdering their baby, especially if they don't believe in a hell. <br /> <br /> All I can say is what is right for me, if I was a lesbian, I would have to accept that and act accordingly, which would mean to live a single life and offer that sacrifice to God. That would be my way of dealing with my situation. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'>

[samuel]

Fair enough Whelan, thanks for your reply <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/cool.gif' alt='Cool'>