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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:34 am
 


http://www.immigrationreform.ca/english/view.asp?x=900

MYTH:

We need immigrants to do the jobs Canadians won’t do.

The facts:

Sufficiently high wages will induce Canadians to fill all jobs needed in the economy. The increased use of capital and new technologies induced by higher wages will raise workers’ productivity enough so that employers can afford to pay the higher wages. The filling of these jobs by immigrants prevents such pay increases, which in turn causes more Canadians to live in poverty than would otherwise have been the case.


MYTH:

Canada needs large numbers of immigrants because it will face massive shortages of skilled labour in the coming decades.

The facts:

There will be no such shortages if more Canadians acquire the needed skills, which can be accomplished if wages, government policies and other conditions encourage them to do so and the jobs are not filled by immigrants. With a few exceptions—such as the present and temporary shortage of medical workers—Canada has both the human resources and educational infrastructure to meet our skilled labour needs.


MYTH:

With an aging population and lower fertility rates, Canada needs high levels of immigration to provide the workers and tax base required to support social services for retirees.

The facts:

While it is true Canadians are living longer and having fewer babies, research shows that immigration has almost no impact on offsetting the costs of an aging population. Immigrants themselves grow old and draw on social support services while on average they have families as small as those of other Canadians.

For immigrants to make a net contribution to the support of social services, they would have to pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits. In recent years this has not been the case as newcomers have usually earned substantially less than native-born Canadians and have drawn significantly more in social services than they have paid in taxes.

The only ways to deal with the effects of an aging population involve increases in productivity and raising the age of retirement to accord with improvements in the population’s health and longevity.


MYTH:

High levels of immigration are required to ensure Canada’s prosperity.

The facts:

A country’s prosperity does not depend on a growing population or workforce. This is particularly true in the case of Canada since we are a trading nation and do not require an increasingly large domestic market to achieve economies of scale. Our prosperity depends rather on sound economic policies that stimulate productivity, make good use of capital investment and maximize the potential of the existing workforce.



MYTH

Canadians benefit from the capital brought here by wealthy immigrants.

The facts:
Evidence suggests that the amount of capital investors have brought into Canada is on average relatively small and does not raise their income enough to make them pay taxes above the average. Studies have shown that the investments often go into real estate, mainly housing, which raises land prices and the housing costs of Canadians. A large proportion of investors buy small businesses, such as retail stores, that provide their owners with relatively low incomes and lead to low tax payments.


MYTH:

Even if many recent immigrants have not been successful, many of their children do very well.

The facts:

While it is true that in the past, the children and grandchildren of immigrants have successfully integrated into the Canadian labour force and performed comparably to the native born, there is no evidence yet available to suggest that this will continue to be the case for the children and grandchildren of the more recent cohorts of immigrants, who have performed so poorly economically. In the past, the first generation would usually close the earnings gap with the native born over a ten- or twenty-year period. This would provide them with the wherewithal to ensure their children got a good education and to follow their examples in working hard and doing well economically. Now, however, there is a real risk that the growing ghettoization and increasing poverty among many recent immigrants will undermine their capacity to give their children a good start in life, creating a poverty trap. This would feed a growing inequality that would persist even into the second and third generations. Consequently, it would be foolish for the government to continue to admit large numbers of new immigrants on the hope that their children and grandchildren will be able to succeed economically given the lack of solid empirical evidence that the immigrants themselves are succeeding.

MYTH:

Since most new immigrants come from developing countries and are members of visible minority groups, it would be an act of racism to reduce immigration levels.

The facts:

Canada’s immigrants are selected on the basis of criteria that exclude consideration of their origin, religion or skin colour. These criteria will continue to be applied if levels of immigration are reduced. The fact that the possible future reduction of immigration levels affects persons from visible minorities is simply the result of the fact that we do not need as many newcomers regardless of their backgrounds and is not motivated by racism.


MYTH:

Immigrants built Canada and are needed to continue this process in the future.

The facts:

It is true that in the past, immigrants were responsible for much of Canada’s population and economic growth. However, this fact does not imply that immigrants are needed for the continued existence and prosperity of the country. The population and economy are large enough to be self-sustaining. The merit of continued high levels of immigration is determined by the effects the immigrants have on the living standards and culture of the existing population. In the absence of large immigration flows, the growth in population and incomes will be determined by the decisions of Canadians about the number of children they have and the sacrifices they make for them through savings and investment. This is how it should be. Politicians, buying votes from immigrant communities, should not interfere with this process.


MYTH:

As one of the more wealthy countries, Canada has an obligation to share its bounty with people from poorer countries who want to come here to benefit from our standard of living.

The facts:

Canada is too small to have an appreciable impact on global poverty through immigration. It only accounts for around 2.5% of global GDP. Sharing this indiscriminately with the rest of the world would only impoverish Canadians without substantially reducing global poverty. Canada can do more to combat global poverty through its foreign policies and development assistance.


MYTH:

Canadians support high levels of immigration.

The facts:

Although throughout history most Canadians have been positive about immigration in general, many polls show that more recently, and after many years of very high levels of immigration, those who want our intake lowered far outnumber those who want it raised. Despite this, advocates of high immigration have been far more influential in setting immigration goals than average Canadians. The former include immigration lawyers looking to expand their client base, employers in search of cheap labour, immigrant settlement organizations that receive government funding and political parties seeking support from immigrant communities. Until Canadians in general understand the extent to which current immigration policies do not serve their interests and begin to demand that political parties adopt more sensible policies, they can expect little improvement to this situation.

This is not to oppose immigration per se. There will always be important fields where critical shortages exist and where Canadians choose to go elsewhere. Historically, Canada has greatly benefited from its immigrants and always will, but the careful selection and nurture of immigrants is critical.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:48 am
 


I read the post. Despite reading immigration literature for 20 years I have never read the Centre of Immigration Policy Reforms literature carefully. I just abbreviate the problem to if there are not good jobs at the bottom you should be careful what immigrants you import.

In addition the myths of immigration don't tell you the benefits of not doing it. I have a list of some 28 economic advantages to a tighter labor market and the higher minimum wage that would entail. The tighter labor market would be an all around tonic. This is the way to sell immigration reform.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:37 am
 


Economy is not ready for immigration increase yet. Later maybe, but now immigration cuts are necessary.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:15 am
 


I'm getting sick of all those immigration threads. IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT A THREAT!
:roll:


Last edited by Brenda on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:03 am
 


I call myself an activist and am known here in Toronto. Not one immigrant has complained to me about my immigrant reform ideas. If anything they are extra concerned because they are at the bottom or can easily reach there so they think economy.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:42 am
 


Andy, instead of beating the drum for more pointless and inflationary minimum wage manipulations did it occur to you that if you simply restrict the labor supply by restricting immigration then the law of supply and demand will drive up wages all on its own?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:52 am
 


PostFactum wrote:
Economy is not ready for immigration increase yet. Later maybe, but now immigration cuts are necessary.

Tell that to Saskatchewan and Alberta which actually need unskilled labour and are looking more towards bringing in foreigners (I worked for a Denny's that had to go to Bangladesh to get enough cooks to maintain at least some order). It is not a rare situation here either and apparently people from Ontario/Quebec are unwilling to move to place where they can find jobs so we are actually forced to look outside the country.

Allow more immigration, just make the faster method require a minimal 10 years in a lit of cities that need unskilled labour.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:54 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:
Andy, instead of beating the drum for more pointless and inflationary minimum wage manipulations did it occur to you that if you simply restrict the labor supply by restricting immigration then the law of supply and demand will drive up wages all on its own?

Or just have to province actually increase minimum wage like Sask has been doing fairly steadily for the past ~4 years.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:08 am
 


jeff744 wrote:
PostFactum wrote:
Economy is not ready for immigration increase yet. Later maybe, but now immigration cuts are necessary.

Tell that to Saskatchewan and Alberta which actually need unskilled labour and are looking more towards bringing in foreigners (I worked for a Denny's that had to go to Bangladesh to get enough cooks to maintain at least some order). It is not a rare situation here either and apparently people from Ontario/Quebec are unwilling to move to place where they can find jobs so we are actually forced to look outside the country.

Allow more immigration, just make the faster method require a minimal 10 years in a lit of cities that need unskilled labour.


And yet here in Alberta, we still had a >0% unemployment rate. Native reserves were 4% or more higher than the rest of the population, and they are the ones always saying they have no opportunities. Even with our initiatives to bring the 'disabled' back to the workforce, we still have need.

I'm not a big fan of temp foreign workers, but there are jobs that still need to be done, and someone has to do them.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:14 am
 


jeff744 wrote:
PostFactum wrote:
Economy is not ready for immigration increase yet. Later maybe, but now immigration cuts are necessary.

Tell that to Saskatchewan and Alberta which actually need unskilled labour and are looking more towards bringing in foreigners (I worked for a Denny's that had to go to Bangladesh to get enough cooks to maintain at least some order). It is not a rare situation here either and apparently people from Ontario/Quebec are unwilling to move to place where they can find jobs so we are actually forced to look outside the country.

Allow more immigration, just make the faster method require a minimal 10 years in a lit of cities that need unskilled labour.


Well, no. You maybe don't want Denny's at all. In Toronto here there is wall to wall restaurants and fast food places and what you want to do is get rid of some of them. Labour shortages would do the trick. Be reminded that the low wage worker at Denny's pays little tax and is very, very heavily subsidized by businesses that pay reasonably. You can contour the jobs available. In the long run you want better jobs, not to preserve dogs like restaurants. That's the purpose of growth.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:16 am
 


DrCaleb wrote:
jeff744 wrote:
PostFactum wrote:
Economy is not ready for immigration increase yet. Later maybe, but now immigration cuts are necessary.

Tell that to Saskatchewan and Alberta which actually need unskilled labour and are looking more towards bringing in foreigners (I worked for a Denny's that had to go to Bangladesh to get enough cooks to maintain at least some order). It is not a rare situation here either and apparently people from Ontario/Quebec are unwilling to move to place where they can find jobs so we are actually forced to look outside the country.

Allow more immigration, just make the faster method require a minimal 10 years in a lit of cities that need unskilled labour.


And yet here in Alberta, we still had a >0% unemployment rate. Native reserves were 4% or more higher than the rest of the population, and they are the ones always saying they have no opportunities. Even with our initiatives to bring the 'disabled' back to the workforce, we still have need.

I'm not a big fan of temp foreign workers, but there are jobs that still need to be done, and someone has to do them.

They are generally unwilling to look lower than their skill level, if you cannot find a job that is exactly in your skills look for others that are within your skills, if that fails look for unskilled. If you live in Sask or Alberta finding employment is not that hard. You don't need to stay in the unskilled job your whole life but at least it is a form of income and you still have to time to job hunt.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:20 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:
Andy, instead of beating the drum for more pointless and inflationary minimum wage manipulations did it occur to you that if you simply restrict the labor supply by restricting immigration then the law of supply and demand will drive up wages all on its own?

You have to be very careful with a phrase like that. Wage rates aren't like other prices. Their determination is based on Marginal Revenue Product of Labour, not supply and demand. While restricting labour supply can have some effect, it's not the sole (or even the dominant) determining factor.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:21 am
 


Alberta has strong growth and the possibility to be an advanced society. There should be pressure on the bottom in Alberta. You want a society with reasonable jobs on offer and Alberta will be an experiment in how that goes.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:23 am
 


Lemmy wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:
Andy, instead of beating the drum for more pointless and inflationary minimum wage manipulations did it occur to you that if you simply restrict the labor supply by restricting immigration then the law of supply and demand will drive up wages all on its own?

You have to be very careful with a phrase like that. Wage rates aren't like other prices. Their determination is based on Marginal Revenue Product of Labour, not supply and demand. While restricting labour supply can have some effect, it's not the sole (or even the dominant) determining factor.

Not even close. Especially not in the lower wages. "You want a raise? Yeah, well, I can hire 10 others for you who will work for less..."


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:29 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:
Andy, instead of beating the drum for more pointless and inflationary minimum wage manipulations did it occur to you that if you simply restrict the labor supply by restricting immigration then the law of supply and demand will drive up wages all on its own?


I've said that repeatedly, and many of your tighty righty fellow travelers want open immigration for just that reason.


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