[Jabberwalker]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

I wonder what Ireland's excuse is?

They'd have joined NATO long ago if the Brits weren't in it. Just how they roll, I suppose.

That didn't stop youse guys from joining.

... sorta stopped your old French compatriots, though ...

[BartSimpson]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

That didn't stop youse guys from joining.

... sorta stopped your old French compatriots, though ...

What stopped the French from joining NATO was that for quite a while they contemplated joining up with the Warsaw Pact.

In 1945 their dalliances with the Soviets led to Churchill issuing a quiet yet formal ultimatum in the midst of the crisis in the Levant and while I think Churchill was correct his action led to a half a century of mistrust between France and the rest of NATO.

https://books.google.com/books?id=vk-cB ... sr&f=false

Prior to 2001 there used to be a lot of resources on the US Naval War College site with regards to post WW2 Franco-Allied relations and I recall more than a few instances where a US President and a UK PM co-wrote nastygrams to the French advising them that allowing Soviet troops on French soil would be viewed as a provocation.

In 1986 when the US went after Libya the French denied permission to the US strike force to cross French airspace and the French allegedly passed on a warning to the Libyans of the impending attack. In a completely unrelated and tragic coincidence the French Embassy in Libya that was passing signals to Libya was bombed by an off-course F-111.

So, yeah. The French are a quasi-redoubtable ally. Yay, they're in NATO.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

What stopped the French from joining NATO was that for quite a while they contemplated joining up with the Warsaw Pact.

That I would like a source for. I know the uppity, ungrateful pricks thought they could do without NATO, but this is the first I've heard that they contemplated joining the Warsaw Pact.

[BartSimpson]

The best I can do is the link to the book with the mention of the ultimatum (one of several).

Churchill's fifth volume of "The Second World War" has quite a bit of detail on the frosty relations of the period and how the Levant crisis of 1945 came very close to war with France when the Froggies tried to re-occupy Syria and they sent a fleet down the Med to enforce it. The Royal Navy got in their way and promised a re-enactment of Trafalgar if the French fleet didn't turn around.

France blinked.

Used to be I had access to the NWC library with tons more stuff but that's all gone now. I don't even have access to the sh*t I wrote.

[Jabberwalker]

The French ally ...helped you win your Revolution. There was hardly battle fought without a formation of French professional soldiers included.

Freedom fries!

[pineywoodslim]

Tricks Tricks:

pineywoodslim pineywoodslim:

If Ireland could manage being neutral in WW2,

Not exactly something to be proud of I'd say.

Ireland's colonial master, the British Empire, had killed thousands of Irishmen and had devastated Ireland in the 1920s in a brutal campaign against Irish independence.

I don't understand why you would think that Ireland would wish to ally itself with Britain in light of that history.

But the principal reason Ireland didn't declare war against Germany was that Germany was perceived as a lesser threat to the Republic of Ireland than the United Kingdom, and that Irish cities--already devastated by the UK--would be further devastated by Germany. Beyond that, Ireland would have become a military sub-unit of the UK, with British bases and military installations.

The first time the British came, it took the Irish 300 yrs. to kick them out. After 20 yrs of independence, Ireland had pause to invite them back in.

[Jabberwalker]

pineywoodslim pineywoodslim:

Tricks Tricks:

pineywoodslim pineywoodslim:

If Ireland could manage being neutral in WW2,

Not exactly something to be proud of I'd say.

Ireland's colonial master, the British Empire, had killed thousands of Irishmen and had devastated Ireland in the 1920s in a brutal campaign against Irish independence.

I don't understand why you would think that Ireland would wish to ally itself with Britain in light of that history.

But the principal reason Ireland didn't declare war against Germany was that Germany was perceived as a lesser threat to the Republic of Ireland than the United Kingdom, and that Irish cities--already devastated by the UK--would be further devastated by Germany. Beyond that, Ireland would have become a military sub-unit of the UK, with British bases and military installations.

The first time the British came, it took the Irish 300 yrs. to kick them out. After 20 yrs of independence, Ireland had pause to invite them back in.

Ya win some ...ya lose some.

[BartSimpson]

pineywoodslim pineywoodslim:

Ireland's colonial master, the British Empire, had killed thousands of Irishmen and had devastated Ireland in the 1920s in a brutal campaign against Irish independence.

I don't understand why you would think that Ireland would wish to ally itself with Britain in light of that history.

But the principal reason Ireland didn't declare war against Germany was that Germany was perceived as a lesser threat to the Republic of Ireland than the United Kingdom, and that Irish cities--already devastated by the UK--would be further devastated by Germany. Beyond that, Ireland would have become a military sub-unit of the UK, with British bases and military installations.

The first time the British came, it took the Irish 300 yrs. to kick them out. After 20 yrs of independence, Ireland had pause to invite them back in.

The Irish were not entirely poor judges of character.

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/nia ... 7031.html#

[pineywoodslim]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

The French ally ...helped you win your Revolution. There was hardly battle fought without a formation of French professional soldiers included.
Freedom fries!

Odd isn't it, that American colonial troops played a role in the British conquest of Canada. There are all sorts of monuments and historical attractions in northern New York state celebrating outfits like the "42nd New York Royal Colonial Regiment" in its wars against the French, yet 15 years later it had all reversed.

I think Ft. Louisbourg was one of the biggies with Massachusetts colonial troops in the thick of it.

[BartSimpson]

pineywoodslim pineywoodslim:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

The French ally ...helped you win your Revolution. There was hardly battle fought without a formation of French professional soldiers included.
Freedom fries!

Odd isn't it, that American colonial troops played a role in the British conquest of Canada. There are all sorts of monuments and historical attractions in northern New York state celebrating outfits like the "42nd New York Royal Colonial Regiment" in its wars against the French, yet 15 years later it had all reversed.

I think Ft. Louisbourg was one of the biggies with Massachusetts colonial troops in the thick of it.

Likewise the French were our ally against the UK in 1776-1783 but then not so many years later we fought the so-called Quasi War against none other than France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-War

This war led to the creation of a permanent US Navy and (even better) the US Marine Corps.

It also led to Thomas Jefferson orchestrating the Louisiana Purchase which had multiple aims:

1. It removed a potent Napoleonic French influence from the region.
2. By doing so it removed the inevitable occupation of New Orleans by the British.
3. It gave control of the Mississippi to the US.
4. It isolated Spanish Florida from Spanish Mexico preventing the Spanish from controlling the entirety of the Gulf Coast.
5. Oh, and it incidentally gave the US a bunch of land, so much land we had no idea what the hell to do with it at first.

[Jabberwalker]

... and, of course, you opened up a second front for your revolutionary buddy Napoleon Bonaparte back in 1812 when you invaded this place ...

That tied up all sorts of Redcoats.

[ShepherdsDog]

pineywoodslim pineywoodslim:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

The French ally ...helped you win your Revolution. There was hardly battle fought without a formation of French professional soldiers included.
Freedom fries!

Odd isn't it, that American colonial troops played a role in the British conquest of Canada. There are all sorts of monuments and historical attractions in northern New York state celebrating outfits like the "42nd New York Royal Colonial Regiment" in its wars against the French, yet 15 years later it had all reversed.

I think Ft. Louisbourg was one of the biggies with Massachusetts colonial troops in the thick of it.

I can find the 42nd (Royal Highland) Regiment of Foot Soldiers, but nothing on the 42nd New York Royal Colonial Regiment. They were Black Watch regulars from the UK, stationed for a time in Albany, not colonial militia or like the 60th Regiment of Foot (Royal Americans)

[Batsy2]

pineywoodslim pineywoodslim:

Ireland's colonial master, the British Empire, had killed thousands of Irishmen and had devastated Ireland in the 1920s in a brutal campaign against Irish independence.

Rubbish. It was the Irish Civil War which devastated Ireland in the 1920s. It was fought between those forces who were pro-Anglo-Irish Treaty (supported by the British) and those were anti-Anglo-Irish Treaty. The pro-Treaty side won.

As for the British Empire, the whole of Ireland was part of the UK between 1801 and 1922 and, during that time, the Irish were very much willing participants in the running of the glorious British Empire.

$1:

I don't understand why you would think that Ireland would wish to ally itself with Britain in light of that history.

If we all went down that silly route then Britain and much of Europe would still be enemies with Germany; Britain and the USA would not be allies because of what happened over 200 years ago when the Yanks threw their toys out of the pram. And yet this is not the case because the world has to move on and not be hindered by events which happened decades or centuries ago.

$1:

But the principal reason Ireland didn't declare war against Germany was that Germany was perceived as a lesser threat to the Republic of Ireland than the United Kingdom, and that Irish cities--already devastated by the UK--would be further devastated by Germany. Beyond that, Ireland would have become a military sub-unit of the UK, with British bases and military installations.

The fact that many Irish politicians, including its wartime Taoiseach (PM), Éamon de Valera, were raging anti-Semites who wanted all the Jews kicked out of Ireland and were supportive of the Nazis is the main reason for the country's neutral stance during the war.

It was only a couple of years ago that the Republic of Ireland's Defence Minister Alan Shatter issued a public apology to all those Irish soldiers who were imprisoned and treated disgracefully by the Irish Government for nothing more than fighting for the British against the Nazis in WWII.

$1:

The first time the British came, it took the Irish 300 yrs. to kick them out. After 20 yrs of independence, Ireland had pause to invite them back in.

The Irish invaded Britain long before the British invaded Ireland. They even settled western Scotland over 1,000 years ago and formed a Gaelic Kingdom there.

And it wasn't the British (or the English) who invaded Ireland, as such. It was England's Norman rulers who invaded Ireland, and they were invited over by the king of Leinster.

On 1 May 1169, an expedition of Cambro-Norman knights with an army of about six hundred landed at Bannow Strand in present-day County Wexford. It was led by Richard de Clare, called Strongbow due to his prowess as an archer.[41] The invasion, which coincided with a period of renewed Norman expansion, was at the invitation of Dermot Mac Murrough, the king of Leinster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland#No ... _invasions

[Batsy2]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

On an idle thought I wonder what an Irish Air Force roundel would look like? Green, white, and orange in a circle or would they go with a green roundel with a harp in it?

The Republic of Ireland does have an air force.



The Irish Air Corps was founded in 1924, two years after what is now the Republic of Ireland seceded from the UK. It currently has 886 personnel and 24 aircraft.



It also has an army of 7,500 personnel...



...and a navy of 994 personnel and 7 ships. LÉ Eithne is the current flagship of the Naval Service.


The Irish Naval Service's flagship, LÉ Eithne

In October 2010, contracts were signed for several new "Offshore Patrol Vessels" (OPVs) for the Irish Naval Service. The new ships are being constructed by Babcock Marine at Appledore, Devon, in the UK. The first ship, LÉ Samuel Beckett, was delivered in May 2014. The second ship, LÉ James Joyce, was laid down in November 2013, with delivery expected in 2015,[15] and a third vessel ordered for delivery in 2016.


The Irish Naval Service's new ship, the LÉ James Joyce, at Appledore Yard in Devon