[peck420]

EB,

I do state that I think we should stay on board the F-35 program. There is no real need to purchase RIGHT now. Once production begins, adding the paltry number Canada would order wouldn't cause a delay.

We could literally delay our decision now by 2 years and still have our planes withtin the current time frame (if that time frame is accurate).

So, we have the oppurtunity to be patient and see what comes out of this system when it is complete. I say we take that oppurtunity.

Personally I still think we should buy a couple of SU-30MKK's. We chould strip them down and load them up with F-35ish avionics, communications and integration. Just for fun.

We might learn something, we might not. Either way, we are still good with the US (we are still in the program) and we might even have a few trinkets to exchange them found in the SU.

Worst case scenario, we end up with a couple of planes that are perfect for airshows.

Edit it to add:

Our expected delivery of F-35's is from 2017 -2020. This definitely means that we have time to be patient and do due diligence. All I ask is that our government considers patience when it costs us nothing.

Second edit:
Canada is currently a Tier 3 partner. Just to make sure nobody thinks that I am recommending going down any levels.

[peck420]

Brock,

I just thought of this while reading a JSF Industrial study completed by the US.

If Canada is 100% positive in procurring F-35 frames, make the investment NOW to Tier 1. If we move up to Tier 1 our per unit costs will drop dramatically. (Tier 1's get to manufacture some coponents in their own Aero industries) The US study flat out states that Canada would have no problems manufacturing the required parts internally on current systems. We could basically transfer a percentage right back into our tax revenue.

My big beef with this program is our 'on the sidelines' approach. Either we get in and go 100%. Or we sit it out and wait until it is in full production.

Just wanted to throw this out there. My primary concerns are the safety of Canada and the lives of her defenders. The way the JSF program has been handled by our government is what has shaken my confidence in it.

[bootlegga]

PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:

Thanos wrote:

Paying whatever penalty it costs to withdraw from this deal altogether is looking like the better option with each passing day.

I'm becoming inclined to agree. Although I think they should take any penalty and stick it someplace since we already forked over more than $100M to help fund the research for it.

We've actually put in $160 million, but Canadian companies have already garnered $430 million in contracts so far, so the Liberal strategy of investing in the program to create jobs/tax dollars has worked well so far.

If we got $20 - $30 billion in future maintenance and supply contracts, it'd be zero-sum, but I have my doubts we'd get that much (estimates are between $10-15 billion for Canadian companies).

I say the contract (if one was actually signed) and hold a proper competition and let the best plane win. Then, no matter the cost or which plane wins, buy the damned things and everyone can shut up about it once and for all.

[andyt]

What's the return back to the govt on that $430 million? You sure they get the 160 back on that?

[EyeBrock]

peck420 wrote:

Brock,

I just thought of this while reading a JSF Industrial study completed by the US.

If Canada is 100% positive in procurring F-35 frames, make the investment NOW to Tier 1. If we move up to Tier 1 our per unit costs will drop dramatically. (Tier 1's get to manufacture some coponents in their own Aero industries) The US study flat out states that Canada would have no problems manufacturing the required parts internally on current systems. We could basically transfer a percentage right back into our tax revenue.

My big beef with this program is our 'on the sidelines' approach. Either we get in and go 100%. Or we sit it out and wait until it is in full production.

Just wanted to throw this out there. My primary concerns are the safety of Canada and the lives of her defenders. The way the JSF program has been handled by our government is what has shaken my confidence in it.

I agree. Either commit fully or pull out and buy a second rate aircraft.

[Thanos]

$30 billion total over thirty years for both purchase and maintenence would have been acceptable. $30 billion just for purchase and then another $19 to $25 billion extra for maintenance isn't. Clearly we should back out now and wait another few years until the numbers start making more sense.

[bootlegga]

andyt wrote:

What's the return back to the govt on that $430 million? You sure they get the 160 back on that?

I don't know, but I'm sure the government never gets a 100% on investments like that - if they did, we wouldn't have run back-to-back $50+ billion dollars (that Harper and Co. largely attribute to the vast amounts of stimulus spending in the past two budgets).

Stuff like that is designed to create new jobs and new taxes - just like the $60 billion the Conservatives want to let corporations keep over the next decade. Their assumption is that corporations will be so happy that they're saving a couple of hundred million that they'll add thousands of new jobs and create more taxes. Of course, if they do that, then much of their profits vanish.

I'm inclined to believe that corporations will create some jobs, but a lot of that extra profit will be exported out of the country and given to shareholders in the form of dividends instead - as is generally the case with large corporations these days.

[herbie]

Aw the Department of National Defense are just a bunch of left wingers too.

[Gunnair]

Quote:

F-35 fighter jet's cost to top $75M, Defence says

David Pugliese, National Post · Apr. 27, 2011 | Last Updated: Apr. 27, 2011 8:01 AM ET

OTTAWA - In a reversal of its previous position, the Defence Department now acknowledges the F-35 will cost more than the $75-million government and military officials have always insisted would be the price.

At this point, the department says it doesn't know how much the new cost will be.

But on Tuesday, Prime Minister Stephen Harper dismissed any suggestions the cost of the stealth fighter jets will rise.

The Defence Department's decision to retreat from its claim the F-35s will cost $75 million each comes as new Pentagon reports document the rising price tag for the fighter as well as its maintenance.

The Pentagon report to Congress outlined the various increases affecting the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, noting the cost has now climbed to US$380-billion. A second Pentagon report, leaked to the Bloomberg News agency, also warned of cost increases to maintain the aircraft. Those maintenance cost estimates have more than doubled since 2002.

The Defence Department notes it has not received the report yet from the United States. "Canada is not a recipient of the report, however, as an international partner in the Joint Strike Fighter project, we have been advised it forecasts an increase in production costs for the JSF program," DND said in a statement.

The Pentagon is conducting another review on the F-35 and DND hopes to have a better idea sometime in the summer about the actual impact on production costs, the statement added.

Whatever the price tag, DND officials maintain that any increases will be covered by contingency funds the department has set aside for such an eventuality.

On Tuesday Mr. Harper suggested the U.S. reports weren't relevant to Canada's situation. However, the Prime Minister did not address the fact that DND was acknowledging that cost increases in the United States would affect the Canadian purchase.

"On the cost of the F-35, you heard me say many times before, many of these reports that you are citing are comparing apples to oranges," Mr. Harper told reporters. "Our [DND] experts have put out their detailed figures, and everything we've seen is within those figures and their contingencies, the contingencies that have been allowed."

Mr. Harper and Defence Minister Peter MacKay have continually cited the $75-million-per-aircraft figure. Defence Department procurement chief Dan Ross, as well as air force commander Lieutenant-General Andre Deschamps have also insisted the aircraft will cost $75-million or less.

Retired generals, such as former air force commander Lt.-Gen. Angus Watt, have also claimed that would be the case.

The F-35 was originally supposed to cost about $50-million but the price tag has continued to climb.

The Government Accountability Office, the U. S government's equivalent of the auditor general, has also warned about serious ongoing problems with the aircraft and rising costs. Mike Sullivan, a senior official with the Government Accountability Office, estimates the F-35 model that Canada is buying will cost between $110-million and $115-million.

U.S. defence specialist Winslow Wheeler, who has also raised concerns about the F-35, has estimated the planes will cost about $148-million a piece or higher.

F-35 manufacturer Lockheed Martin has confirmed there are no guarantees on the $75-million figure often cited by the Conservatives. In an interview earlier this year with the Ottawa Citizen, Lockheed Martin official Tom Burbage said Canada will pay whatever the aircraft costs the year that it is purchased.

All F-35 partners, including Canada, will pay the same price as U.S. government, he added.

The $75-million is an estimate of what Lockheed Martin is hopeful the aircraft would cost in the coming years, company officials say.

According to the Conservatives, the entire F-35 program will cost taxpayers about $14-billion but a report from Parliamentary Budget Officer Kevin Page puts the number at $29-billion.

There. A right wing rag is reporting it too. Maybe the partisan stuff can end now.

[Shadow_Flanker]

I used to be a huge supporter of the JSF program, but with all the problems in development and costs over the past months I have my doubts.

I still say we should stick with the program for the remainder of this year, but have a plan B incase things don't improve (for the F-35) once the year is over. Plan B being a call out for bids in an open competition.