[Streaker]

Some fascinating reading here:

Quote:

Winter Soldier on the Hill: War Vets Testify Before Congress

War veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan came to Capitol Hill earlier this year to testify before Congress and give an eyewitness account about the horrors of war. Like the Winter Soldier hearings in March, when more than 200 service members gathered for four days in Silver Spring, Maryland to give their eyewitness accounts of the injustices occurring in Iraq and Afghanistan, “Winter Soldier on the Hill” was designed to drive home the human cost of the war and occupation—this time, to the very people in charge of doing something about it.

Several soldiers' testimony is published, including this....

Quote:

My name is Vincent J.R. Emanuele. I am a resident of Indiana, and I served with the United States Marine Corps from September 2002 through January of 2006 with the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines, Alpha Company, 3rd Platoon as a rifleman and a squad automatic machine gunner. I was deployed to Iraq in August of 2004, where I spent my time in Iraq as a rifleman in 3rd Squad, 1st Team, 3rd Platoon. Our area of operation was a small border town a mile south of the Euphrates and fifteen miles east of Syria called Al Qaim, Iraq.

The issues I will be discussing today include rules of the engagement, or the breakdown thereof, the death of innocents, the destruction of civilian property, the abuse of prisoners, and the mishandling of the dead, all of which took place during the duration of our tour in Iraq. These stories are not mine alone. These are our stories, the stories of 3rd Platoon. I had the chance—I had the chance to speak with several members from my platoon, and these are the events they and I felt were pertinent to discuss with you today.

An act that took place quite often in Iraq was that of taking pop shots at cars that drove by. This was quite easy for most Marines to get away with, because our rules of engagement stated that the town of Al Qaim had already been forewarned and knew to pull their cars to a complete stop when approaching a United States convoy. Our rules of engagement stated that we should first fire warning shots into the ground in front of the car, then the engine block, and then the driver and passengers. Most of the time, however, the shots made their way straight to those very individuals in the car. That is if the car was even moving in the first place. Many times, cars that had actually pulled off to the side of the road were also shot at. Of course, the consequences of such actions posed a huge problem for those of us who patrolled the streets every day. This was not the best way to become friendlier with an already very hostile local population. This was not an isolated incident and took place for most of my eight-month deployment.

In one particular instance, we were sent on a mission to blow up a bridge that was being used to transport weapons across the Euphrates. During this mission, we were ambushed and were forced to return fire in order to make our way out of the city. There are several problems with instances such as these. First, it was very difficult, if not impossible, to clearly identify hostile targets. This resulted in our unit firing into the town with little or no identification of these hostile targets. Because of inadequate intelligence and lack of personnel or competent leadership, our platoon lost a good Marine that day, and I lost my best friend.

The retrans site, otherwise known as a retransmission site, was a communications post set up on a plateau overlooking the town of Al Qaim. This communications site was there to provide communications between the main base at the railroad station where we were stationed and an outpost in Husaybah, Iraq, where Bravo Company’s area of operations took place. We would encounter mortar fire on a daily basis. Most of the time, we would return this fire with mortar fire of our own. Some of the time, the counter-battery would call in a specific location for us to exchange fire. On occasion, when the counter-battery could not call in a specific location, our unit would fire upon the town anyway, sometimes in the hills off to the west of the town where we thought the mortar fire was coming from and other times straight into the town of Al Qaim itself, onto buildings, houses and businesses. Because of the lack of personnel at the retrans site, very rarely, if ever, did we conduct a battle damage assessment report to report civilian deaths and destruction. So almost all the time these incidents went unreported and not investigated. This was not an isolated incident, as well.

Another mission our platoon was tasked to take on was that of transporting prisoners from our detention facility on base back to the desert. The reason I say the desert and not their town is because that is exactly where we would drop them off, in the middle of nowhere. Now, most of these men had obviously been deemed innocent, or else they would have been moved to a more permanent detention facility and not released back into the local population. Our unit engaged in punching, kicking, butt stroking or generally harassing and abusing these very prisoners until the point at which our unit would be take them in the middle of the desert, miles from their respective homes, and at times throw them out of the back of our Humvees, all the while continually punching, kicking and at times even throwing softball-sized rocks at their backs as they ran away. This, once again, was not an isolated incident.

Possibly the most disturbing of what took place in Iraq was the mishandling of the dead. On several occasions, our convoy came across bodies that had been decapitated and were lying on the road, sometimes for weeks. When encountering these bodies, standard procedure was to run over the corpses, sometimes even stopping and taking pictures, which was also a standard practice when encountering the dead in Iraq—this, along with neglecting to account for many of those who were killed or wounded. On one specific occasion, after I had personally shot a man attempting to flee while planting a roadside bomb, we drug his body out of the ditch he was laying in, and we subsequently left that body—slide please—we subsequently left that body to rot in the field, where we saw this man up to a week later.

These are just a few of the disturbing and unacceptable stories I could share with you from my time in Iraq. Others would include continually dehumanizing Iraqis by referring to them as “hajis” or “sand niggers.” Even the racist and sexist nature that exists within the military itself, which was obviously—overtly obvious on a daily basis. I could also tell story upon story of families being destroyed as a result of an occupation that unfortunately should have never taken place. Several members of my platoon—several members of my platoon went through divorces and/or separations, many of the time with children involved.

I could also testify to the overwhelming majority of those I served with who did not think dying in Iraq was honorable or acceptable, nor did they enjoy or want to go back to Iraq a second or third time. Unfortunately, because of personal circumstances, whether they be financial or family issues, many indeed were deployed up to three times during their four-year enlistment. In fact, many, including myself, at times did not have intention of helping the Iraqis. Because of the hostile intent, as well as the loss of lives close to us, our best friends, our unit had a general disdain and distaste for Iraqis and their country. Further, our unit, for the most part, did not trust our command and had a general mistrust and distaste of this occupation from its inception onward.

I could also speak to the personal attacks veterans, including myself and many others, had to encounter once we were willing to be treated for PTSD within our unit. The idea of being a real Marine that does not complain when coming back home and who sucks it up and just does the job that we were tasked to do, this mentality resulted in many of the Marines I served with, including myself, turning to drugs and alcohol to cope with the horrors of this bloody occupation.

Link to full article

[InternetChatter]

We would have lost world war two, if not for controls placed on the media in times of war.

[Streaker]

InternetChatter wrote:

We would have lost world war two, if not for controls placed on the media in times of war.

So you're okay with human rights abuses in Iraq?

[InternetChatter]

No and I am confident in Military Justice.

We did far worse in WWII, the RAF and RCAF leveled entire civilian populations in Dresden, we bombed bridges that killed thousands in many bombing raids.

War is a bitch, and the media can participate in covering it, but they owe the government their security and permission to be in a war theatre. The media doesn't operate in a magical vacuum. Nothing says the public "needs to know" the minutia in real time.

[InternetChatter]

"The Night We Drove Old Dresden Down" is how Prince George author Eldon Lee entitled his write-up on the tragic bombing of Dresden, Germany, just weeks before the Second World War War ended.
Lee, a flight lieutenant bomber pilot during the war who served on the home front, classes the Royal Canadian Air Force raid on Dresden as among those war events that "were so tragic, so horrible, so savage that each generation tries to forget them."
"On Feb. 13, 1945, we Canadians fire-bombed Dresden, Germany. Some historians describe this event as an act of terror, but war is war and by its nature, terrible.
"Every pilot in the bomber stream lives with the horror of that night and every one of us carries the feeling that we were part of that savage attack.
"We demolished an undefended city and killed thousands of civilians -- men, women and children, their dogs, their cats," said Lee.
He tells how politics played a role in the decision to bomb the German city, despite the fact that
Germany's industrial might was shattered, allied Armies were advancing across the Rhine and Russian armies drew closer each day.
"In England a large bombing force was running out of targets and operational planning officers in bombing command could find few strategic targets untouched."
It was time for political considerations as Poland now lay occupied and terrorized by Communist Russia, whose mighty Red Army had reached the German border, Lee said.
"A demonstration of allied power was needed to impress the Russians and serve as an example to bolster negotiating strength in the post-war period. Thus, war strategy and political expediency overlapped. Dresden would be the example."
Lee writes that residents of Dresden were not concerned about bombing raids since their city was undefended with the only weapon in the city being one rusty anti-aircraft gun that would not fire and sat unused in a city park.
Then, as related in the accompanying story, came the night Elizabeth Muntau and her two children fled to a bomb shelter below their apartment and survived the bombing.
Lee said bomber crews of No. 6 RCAF near York, England, had been briefed at 4 p.m. Feb. 13. Their job was to destroy Dresden that night.
Pathfinder planes marked it with flares and 66 heavy RCAF bombers followed. There were three waves of bombers -- the RCAF leading at 11 p.m., Royal Air Force at 1 a.m. and American daylight bombers at 6 a.m.
Tony Pirquet, a longtime Prince George family doctor who was a medical officer in the German army at that time, received an order to "get to Dresden where a big raid had left the city in shambles."
"Tony told me (years later) what he found," Lee said "The city was destroyed, buildings flattened with a huge pall of smoke rising into sky from the fires. Down the centre of the main streets were bodies piled five feet high, stacked in a line that extended for miles."
People of all ages lay grouped together in death while bulldozers dug trenches in parks for mass cremations, Lee said.
"Dresden burned for a week and every organic material above ground was consumed; the very stones in the street were red hot.
"Soon came the Russians. They were impressed. In one eight-hour period Dresden was flattened, thousands lay dead, and even the anti-aircraft gun was totally destroyed," Lee said.
He added that 60 years after the war, Fred Muntau, Elizabeth's son who lives in Prince George posted a copy of Lee's account of the bombing on a bulletin board in the public square of Dresden.
"People looked and then walked away in silence," said Lee.

[Streaker]

I worry about possible parallels between this and what Canadians are up to in Afghanistan. For instance, Canadian soldiers' use of the term "hajis", as evidenced on this very board by PENATRATOR.

[InternetChatter]

you worry far too much.

[Streaker]

Better to worry too much than too little, given our history in Somalia etc...

[hwacker]

Streaker wrote:

Better to worry too much than too little, given our history in Somalia etc...

Why don't you worry about Canada instead of these shithole countries.

[Streaker]

hwacker wrote:

Streaker wrote:

Better to worry too much than too little, given our history in Somalia etc...

Why don't you worry about Canada instead of these shithole countries.

Does it not bother you in the least when Canadian soldiers kill civilians?

[hwacker]

Streaker wrote:

hwacker wrote:

Streaker wrote:

Better to worry too much than too little, given our history in Somalia etc...

Why don't you worry about Canada instead of these shithole countries.

Does it not bother you in the least when Canadian soldiers kill civilians?

Nope because I'm Canadian first. Unless you want to go do their jobs, STFU about it.

[Streaker]

hwacker wrote:

Streaker wrote:

hwacker wrote:

Why don't you worry about Canada instead of these shithole countries.

Does it not bother you in the least when Canadian soldiers kill civilians?

Nope because I'm Canadian first. Unless you want to go do their jobs, STFU about it.

Nevermind the Canadian angle, then. Are you not bothered when soldiers of any nation kill civilians?

[InternetChatter]

The true story of Somalia is one the CBC won't tell.

It involves an incompetent drunk of a commander who was only there due to being French Canadian.

Here is a great link...
http://www.dnd.ca/somalia/vol4/v4c33e.htm

5. Failure in his duty as Commander as defined by analogy to Queen's Regulations and Orders art. 4.20 and in the military custom.

Given our findings above concerning the leadership failures of Col Labbé on training in the Rules of Engagement and the Law of Armed Conflict, and in view of the importance of control and supervision within the chain of command and the need for a commander to retain for himself important matters requiring the commander's personal attention and decision, we conclude that Col Labbé failed as a commander.

[Bacardi4206]

Personally, I think anybody doing something in this situation should be treated as a war criminal. I mean shooting innocent civilians while they were trying to obey our rules. Abusing innocent accused criminals when they are being released.

This just severly effects not only NATO's world wide reputation, but those of the countries the soldiers belongs to and the over-all war effort.

I have no doubt that the cause of these were due to mental issues because of war stress. However there actions were done, and they require to be accountable for them.


I use to look up to the day when U.S. would increase troop sizes in Afghanistan to help the burdon of the CF like they will be doing but after these reports I am starting to wish it won't happen. Further more it makes me wonder if the CF is going through the same thing.

I however believe the CF training courses prepare the CF mentally for war better than the U.S. does. As a result of our longer and more mentally hard training courses.

I am sure that despite war stress, that most CF veterns wouldn't do this. Atleast I hope so.

The goal of these wars are decent, however because of these actions. They are just making it more and more fubar.

[Streaker]

Good stuff, but I wouldn't blame it all on Labbe. There was evidence indicating that the rot had set in to the Airborne and was quite widespread within it.