CKA Forums
Login 
canadian forums
bottom
 
 
Canadian Forums

Author Topic Options
Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 23058
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:40 pm
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
bootlegga bootlegga:
The cost of those cuts could exceed $100 billion - that's a steep bill to pass onto future generations. Of course, given the current generation's love for themselves at the price of future generations, it's not much of a surprise.


There is where you lose me.

The money from tax cuts doesn't just go away. It goes back to the people and business of Canada and back into the economy.

Various taxes were lowered under the previous Liberal government yet we don't hear the same sentiment that those tax cuts will cost us, long term.

There's too much of a double standard, most often from the left that would like us to thing that Liberal tax cuts are just giving "back to the people" while Conservative tax cuts are a waste of time and giving money back to their "Corporate buddies".


My argument here has been solely on the GST, but if you want to bring up all the rest, then I'll address that too.

Of course the money doesn't go away - but the loss of that revenue ($14 billion per year from GST alone) limits the government's ability to provide services.

Sure the Liberals cut taxes here and there - but they never did it to the extent that the current government has. In fact, the Liberals typically did the opposite, raised taxes overall and cut spending, creaing a surplus to pay down debt. Between the GST, income and corporate tax cuts, the Conservatives have caused revenues to drop by close to $20 billion a year. That's close to 10% of the annual federal budget.

Now, that's fine if we don't want a navy or air force, don't need more health care now than we used to, don't want to fund social programs or scientific research, etc. The problem is Canadians want MORE services - and by starving the government of revenues, it's either deficit spending or doing without.

It's simple economics really - you can't spend more than you take in without gfoinginto debt. The last five federal budgets are proof of that. I'll give them two deficits during the recession, but the last three years are largely a result of them starving the government of revenues.





PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:53 pm
 


Harper simply should have promised to "kill da GST" then reneged on it.

Could you image the cursing and swearing from the left? :lol:

It could have been in the "blue book".


Offline
Forum Elite
Forum Elite
Profile
Posts: 1453
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:01 pm
 


bootlegga bootlegga:
My argument here has been solely on the GST, but if you want to bring up all the rest, then I'll address that too.

Of course the money doesn't go away - but the loss of that revenue ($14 billion per year from GST alone) limits the government's ability to provide services.

Sure the Liberals cut taxes here and there - but they never did it to the extent that the current government has. In fact, the Liberals typically did the opposite, raised taxes overall and cut spending, creaing a surplus to pay down debt. Between the GST, income and corporate tax cuts, the Conservatives have caused revenues to drop by close to $20 billion a year. That's close to 10% of the annual federal budget.

Now, that's fine if we don't want a navy or air force, don't need more health care now than we used to, don't want to fund social programs or scientific research, etc. The problem is Canadians want MORE services - and by starving the government of revenues, it's either deficit spending or doing without.

It's simple economics really - you can't spend more than you take in without gfoinginto debt. The last five federal budgets are proof of that. I'll give them two deficits during the recession, but the last three years are largely a result of them starving the government of revenues.


Well said!

Like I said in the first post, guys like Manning, Harris and Klein were very blunt about what we had to do if we didn't want to go bankrupt. We cut taxes, and we cut spending.

It was the right thing to do.

What the Harper government is doing wouldn't bother me nearly as much if it had even tried to level with Canadians about what it was planning to do, instead of implicitly claiming that we can have as many services as we want...without having to pay for them.

Instead, we have Jim Flaherty claiming that the budget was going to be balanced without cutting essential services or transfers to Canadians, despite the huge amount of evidence that those claims are simply not true.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Montreal Canadiens
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 13404
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:15 pm
 


... too young to remember the Trudeau years ...


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 33492
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:02 pm
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:

But how do you know these cuts have had no effect? Please provide some information to back up your claims.



You really never read the newspapers? How is it so many people on this forum seem totally ignorant of what has been reported in the media for so long? Guess it's cover your eyes, la la la, don't want to read anything bad about the Cons.

When the BOC governor chides the corps for sitting on the money they saved from tax cuts, that's not enough evidence for you? Consumer spending certainly hasn't boomed, but then of course it can't with people already struggling with so much debt. And those little tax cuts you love so much cost the govt plenty without doing much of anything. Just cut taxes across the board by the same amount and let people decide what they want to do with the money.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 33492
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:04 pm
 


Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:
... too young to remember the Trudeau years ...


Or young enough to know living in the past is no way to go thru life, son.


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
 Montreal Canadiens


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 7835
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:44 pm
 


JaredMilne JaredMilne:
So we don't know if the tax cuts had any positive impact, then.


You're right. I don't control the multiverse. I don't know what would have been the impact of keeping the taxes at what they were versus lowering them to what they were now, especially with the impending collapse of the US economy so soon after.

The key point is, neither do you. So when you say "failed tax cuts", the question is, what makes them failed? You brought up the lack of job creation and consumer spending, and yet both seem to be decent compared to the bleaker picture to the south of us.

You provided six different articles, 5 of them basically saying "Young People struggle to get jobs in shit economy", which isn't surprising, and has absolutely nothing to do with corporate tax cuts and their impact on businesses. That more has to do with demographics and the high labor competition in this still recovering economy. Why start with fresh meat when you can get experienced labor from the US or from Ontario?

Now, only one actually directly relates to corporate tax cuts and job creation, and I honestly think you didn't read it, or you wouldn't have used it.

The Article, titled: "Cut taxes, create jobs? Not quite The Article, titled: "Cut taxes, create jobs? Not quite:
The Silver denim jeans sold at Bootlegger and Pantorama stores across Canada are no longer made at a factory in Winnipeg. Western Glove Works shifted production four years ago to Asia, where labour costs are much lower than in Canada.

The move highlights the fact that corporate tax cuts in this country have done little to offset the global forces that have battered the once-thriving garment trade. Western Glove alone has shed 1,100 jobs over the past decade, leaving it with just 100 employees today


Okay, so the labor cost of producing garments in Canada is far higher than making them in Asia or Central America. This isn't exactly a new trend, high taxes or low.

Oh, but what does the company owner say he'll do with the revenue he's made from the lowered taxes?

The article, three paragraphs in The article, three paragraphs in:
But there is a silver lining for the 90-year-old private company. Lower taxes have helped Winnipeg Glove make a profit on annual revenue of $100-million, said president Bob Silver. As a result, he said, the company is planning to hire more staff in Winnipeg.


So, here's this guy who's willing to use the money he saves that would of went to corporate taxes...into hiring more staff in Canada. The article basically had a few other examples where companies made the corporate tax rate cut a factor in expanding their operations and creating jobs here in Canada. The deciding factor? No, but a factor nonetheless.

In corporate eyes, lower corporate taxes show that a government is financially confident, as well as encourages corporations to continue investing and being profitable within Canada. The link is there, but it's not 1+1=2. Corporate decisions (nor, I hope, the decisions of the average Canadian) will base their investments and spending habits on one factor, but a relatively lower corporate rate, mixed with a high dollar, skilled workforce, and a smaller crunch after 2008 all played a role. Our government can only control a few aspects of the overall corporate strategy.


Offline
Forum Elite
Forum Elite
Profile
Posts: 1453
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:28 pm
 


commanderkai commanderkai:

You're right. I don't control the multiverse. I don't know what would have been the impact of keeping the taxes at what they were versus lowering them to what they were now, especially with the impending collapse of the US economy so soon after.

The key point is, neither do you. So when you say "failed tax cuts", the question is, what makes them failed? You brought up the lack of job creation and consumer spending, and yet both seem to be decent compared to the bleaker picture to the south of us.

You provided six different articles, 5 of them basically saying "Young People struggle to get jobs in shit economy", which isn't surprising, and has absolutely nothing to do with corporate tax cuts and their impact on businesses. That more has to do with demographics and the high labor competition in this still recovering economy. Why start with fresh meat when you can get experienced labor from the US or from Ontario?

Okay, so the labor cost of producing garments in Canada is far higher than making them in Asia or Central America. This isn't exactly a new trend, high taxes or low.

Oh, but what does the company owner say he'll do with the revenue he's made from the lowered taxes?

So, here's this guy who's willing to use the money he saves that would of went to corporate taxes...into hiring more staff in Canada. The article basically had a few other examples where companies made the corporate tax rate cut a factor in expanding their operations and creating jobs here in Canada. The deciding factor? No, but a factor nonetheless.

In corporate eyes, lower corporate taxes show that a government is financially confident, as well as encourages corporations to continue investing and being profitable within Canada. The link is there, but it's not 1+1=2. Corporate decisions (nor, I hope, the decisions of the average Canadian) will base their investments and spending habits on one factor, but a relatively lower corporate rate, mixed with a high dollar, skilled workforce, and a smaller crunch after 2008 all played a role. Our government can only control a few aspects of the overall corporate strategy.


Of course I read the article. Here's what it says, starting seven paragraphs in...

$1:

At the heart of the debate is just how effective corporate tax cuts are as a job-creation tool. For companies such as Western Glove, the short answer appears to be not at all. For those companies seeking to make their domestic operations more efficient as they face global rivals, the evidence is less than clear.

Even the most ardent fans of the economic stimulus measure - corporate executives themselves - acknowledge that they are hard pressed to find a direct link between tax cuts and job creation.

The Globe and Mail interviewed executives in the machinery, aviation, food, beer and retailing sectors. All said low taxes foster confidence in the economy. But they said many other factors go into making investment decisions, including the cost of raw materials and the value of the Canadian dollar. Many executives singled out specific programs, such as research and development incentives for small companies and funding for retraining programs, as more effective in creating jobs.

...

Edson Packaging Machinery Ltd. invests 4 to 5 cents of every $1 of its revenue in new technology with the help of a research-and-development program. The federal and Ontario governments pay the Hamilton, Ont.-based manufacturer 45 cents for every $1 it spends on research and development, said president Gary Evans. This, in turn, is allowing Edson to design new machinery that helps its customers in the packaged consumer goods sector cut their production times.

As a result, Mr. Evans said, orders are up and Edson, which has 107 employees, plans to hire more.

"We're allowed to grow through that investment," he said.

Even figures compiled by the federal Finance Department indicate that corporate tax cuts are not an effective way to create jobs. As part of the 2010 budget, Finance prepared a study comparing tax cuts with other stimulus measures, including infrastructure investments and Employment Insurance premiums.

Corporate tax cuts ranked at the bottom of the list, producing just 20 cents of domestic economic growth for every $1 in cuts for 2010. Infrastructure investments, by comparison, generated $1.50 in economic activity for every $1 invested.




The problem is that we've been hearing year after year about how important corporate tax cuts are for investment and job creation, and we've been doing it repeatedly. Capital is supposed to be mobile, the theory goes, and so we need to make ourselves the best place for investment.

They've been promoted as this critical ingredient for prosperity and job creation, but for all the cutting we've done, the number of jobs created seems pretty weak to me. The CIBC report I cited talks about the increasing transition to short-term and contract jobs, while the Canada 2020 article talks about how many Canadian businesses have cut their training budgets by over 40%. The OECD report article talks about how many businesses prefer to hire "new labour market entrants and the short-term unemployed", despite your previous claim. And even if we've been doing decently compared to other countries in terms of job creation, that doesn't necessarily mean we're doing great.

I previously quoted Clark and deVries when they talked about the IMF's forecast of low growth for us in the years to come, a claim repeated by the OECD. This in spite of everything we hear about corporate tax cuts leading to major growth and investment.

I'm not against corporate tax cuts in and of themselves. Back in the Chretien era, they were unquestionably the right thing to do. However, it seems to me that we've really hit the point of diminishing returns with them-the more we reduce the tax rate over the last decade or so, the less it seems to make a positive difference. That's the issue I have with the more recent corporate tax cuts, and why I believe they've largely "failed".


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Montreal Canadiens
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 13404
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:05 am
 


andyt andyt:
Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:
... too young to remember the Trudeau years ...


Or young enough to know living in the past is no way to go thru life, son.


... or not bright enough to know that we should never go down that path again.


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
 Montreal Canadiens


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 7835
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:47 am
 


JaredMilne JaredMilne:
The problem is that we've been hearing year after year about how important corporate tax cuts are for investment and job creation, and we've been doing it repeatedly. Capital is supposed to be mobile, the theory goes, and so we need to make ourselves the best place for investment.

They've been promoted as this critical ingredient for prosperity and job creation, but for all the cutting we've done, the number of jobs created seems pretty weak to me.


And the article doesn't disprove that, either, now does it? The article has numerous examples of businesses hiring more workers from the tax cuts. Now, the fact that tax cuts won't be the sole motivator, or even the highest ranking motivator, but still a factor in investment nonetheless. It being advertised as the critical factor is political bluster, but it is still a factor for prosperity and job creation.

The fact YOU don't see the job creation in Canada as weak is your opinion. I think it's better than what it could be after the US market collapse, and even with the strong Canadian dollar (hurting exports and manufacturing jobs), Canada's unemployment stays relatively low and Canada still remains relatively prosperous, even while America stutters.

$1:
I'm not against corporate tax cuts in and of themselves. Back in the Chretien era, they were unquestionably the right thing to do. However, it seems to me that we've really hit the point of diminishing returns with them-the more we reduce the tax rate over the last decade or so, the less it seems to make a positive difference. That's the issue I have with the more recent corporate tax cuts, and why I believe they've largely "failed".


I see the big elephant in the room. The US market collapse. Making assumptions of job growth and consumer spending that might of happened with no tax cuts after 2008 is impossible. Making assumptions as to how Canada's economy would have done, facing the same collapse in 2008, without said tax cuts is impossible. Would the job market or consumer spending be where they are right now? Who knows. Acting like said market collapse did not play the dominant role in the slowing of the Canadian economy is just confusing to say the least.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 33492
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:22 am
 


So when Flaherty himself, and Mark Carney themselves complain that companies have been sitting on their tax savings instead of reinvesting them, that means nothing to you? You know better than them? I read somewhere that corp taxes should be around the same as the highest personal income tax bracket. In Canada they are equal to the lowest.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Calgary Flames
Profile
Posts: 33561
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:28 am
 


Pimpin' ain't easy, john. But at least it's tax free.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Toronto Maple Leafs


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 12398
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:22 am
 


andyt andyt:

You really never read the newspapers? How is it so many people on this forum seem totally ignorant of what has been reported in the media for so long? Guess it's cover your eyes, la la la, don't want to read anything bad about the Cons.


So you actually believe what the newspapers tell you....... [huh]


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 33492
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:27 am
 


PluggyRug PluggyRug:
andyt andyt:

You really never read the newspapers? How is it so many people on this forum seem totally ignorant of what has been reported in the media for so long? Guess it's cover your eyes, la la la, don't want to read anything bad about the Cons.



So you actually believe what the newspapers tell you....... [huh]



Yes. You just make the shit you believe up out of thin air? Or get the direct feed from the Reformacon info line?

You're seriously trying to claim here that when the newspapers report that Flaherty and Harper themselves complain about corps sitting on their profits, or that corps have been amassing more and more cash reserves rather than re-investing, even as corp taxes have steadily dropped for the last decade, these are lies?

Must be nice to live in a world of such certainty where you know the truth, no matter what the lieberal media is trying to tell you. No different than a religious fundamentalist.

Consumer spending not going up in sync with the GST cut - more lieberal media lies?

Boutique tax cut that cost the govt money but don't affect taxpayer behavior as intended - just trained seal economists doing their act for the lieberal media?

Man, what a cornspiracy. Must be nice to have your own font of truth to counter it.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Vancouver Canucks
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 21663
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:23 am
 


commanderkai commanderkai:
You provided six different articles, 5 of them basically saying "Young People struggle to get jobs in shit economy", which isn't surprising, and has absolutely nothing to do with corporate tax cuts and their impact on businesses. That more has to do with demographics and the high labor competition in this still recovering economy. Why start with fresh meat when you can get experienced labor from the US or from Ontario?


And, according to the CD Howe Institute (normally friendly to the Conservatives) due to the Temporary Foreign Worker Program, at least in BC and Alberta.


Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Previous  1  2  3  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests




 
     
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © Canadaka.net. Powered by © phpBB.