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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:17 am
 


I've often heard bilingualism decried because many people in provinces other than Quebec see it as special treatment to the French minorities living outside Quebec, and view it as a waste of money because of this.

However, what about the English minorities who live in Quebec, and any non-Quebec Anglophones who pass through there on their way to the Atlantic provinces, Ontario or the West? If the French minorities outside Quebec don't deserve any special consideration, does that mean that the English minorities within Quebec don't deserve any kind of consideration either, given that the majority in Quebec is French? If they do, then what is the logic for extending particular treatment to Quebec Anglophones, but refusing it to Francophone minorities in other provinces?

To me, it ends up coming across as wanting special treatment for Anglo-Quebecers, treatment that no other group in the country gets. That argument has given the Quebec separatist movement a lot of ammunition over the years. Some might cite Quebec's language laws as an example of mistreatment of that province's Anglophone population, and there have been incidents like that, but la belle province has also extensively retooled and updated its language laws, including the exceptions and exemptions for the province's Anglophone minority.

I ask this not to criticize, but because I'm genuinely curious.

Thoughts and comments are both welcome and desired.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:35 am
 


I say do it, end bilingualism across the board. Quebec needs English to function, the rest of the nation does not need French.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:44 am
 


1) Bilingualism is OK where it's needed.
2) In most parts of the the country it's not needed.
3) At some point it becomes prohibitively expensive and kind of pointless to provide a service where it's not required.
4) In some parts of the country it makes no sense to provide this service in French anyway. Go to Vancouver and Mandarin or whatever it is the Sikhs and Hindus speak are more logical choices for a second language.
5) No one in most of the rest of Canada really cares what Quebec does with their own internal policies. Majority French in Quebec = government services provided in French. Fairly logical to do things this way It was when those policies got forced on the rest of the country during the Trudeau era that people got pissed off. This country has a greater destiny waiting for us than focussing all the time on the gratification of Quebec and other minority groups.


Last edited by Thanos on Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:45 am
 


I think some of it has to do with the fact that the english minority in Quebec is much larger than the french minorities in other provinces. As well, like Guy said, most of the world nevermind north america uses english as a default second language. People who don't learn english are very limited in what they can do. Might not be fair, but it's reality.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:49 am
 


Thanos Thanos:
1) whatever it is the Sikhs and Hindus speak are more logical choices for a second language.


Punjabi and Hindi. Jeez. And Tagalog would be a better choice than Hindi.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:53 am
 


We were founded by the French and English. That's why French gets a special place. And Quebec makes a large part of Canadian identity. Without Quebec, we'd pretty soon look much like the US, I think. Nothing wrong with bilingualism, just in its ridiculous extremes, and how we're willing to allow Quebec to trample over free speech rights to enforce their specialness. (WTF is wrong with this spell checker when it doesn't like specialness?) I'm kinda proud of bilingualism. Makes us seem more cosmopolitan.


Last edited by andyt on Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:58 am
 


Bilingualism is good. One-or-the-other-lingualism is bad.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:34 pm
 


Thanos Thanos:
1) Bilingualism is OK where it's needed.
2) In most parts of the the country it's not needed.
3) At some point it becomes prohibitively expensive and kind of pointless to provide a service where it's not required.
4) In some parts of the country it makes no sense to provide this service in French anyway. Go to Vancouver and Mandarin or whatever it is the Sikhs and Hindus speak are more logical choices for a second language.
5) No one in most of the rest of Canada really cares what Quebec does with their own internal policies. Majority French in Quebec = government services provided in French. Fairly logical to do things this way It was when those policies got forced on the rest of the country during the Trudeau era that people got pissed off. This country has a greater destiny waiting for us than focussing all the time on the gratification of Quebec and other minority groups.


Okay, so what happens if you happen to be travelling through Quebec and end up needing some sort of government service? Wouldn't you want to be provided with those services in English? Same thing applies, in reverse, to French Quebecers who are travelling elsewhere in Canada and may not speak English as well as they could.

Incidentally, Trudeau's bilingualism efforts were in large part an attempt to reestablish what was originally supposed to be the bilingualism of the Prairies-Alberta, for one, only became largely English-speaking due to gross violations of the original constitutional arrangements that founded this province and an active attempt to forcibly assimilate the French Canadians.

Trudeau's efforts were undermined by his not even trying to explain to people in other parts of Canada just why he was doing it. Many Albertans and other Westerners didn't understand the basis for bilingualism, or the violations of the original arrangements by which the West was supposed to be bilingual, and was de facto bilingual for a long time. Of course, Trudeau being Trudeau, he was largely indifferent to the often quite understandable protests people out here were making.

You'd be surprised at the role French Canadians played in building Alberta, to the extent that they were largely the ones who set the table for the settlement that would come later and convinced many of the First Nations to sign the Treaties. And it's funny how French is actually the language that some immigrants from French-speaking countries like Rwanda or the Congo are using to communicate with other Canadians outside their ethnic group-I know this because a number of them were my fellow students at the U of A's francophone campus. At least in the Edmonton area, and probably also elsewhere, the Franco-Albertan community is becoming more multicultural and diverse too. It's not just the descendants of white Franco-Quebecers anymore.

andyt andyt:
We were founded by the French and English. That's why French gets a special place. And Quebec makes a large part of Canadian identity. Without Quebec, we'd pretty soon look much like the US, I think. Nothing wrong with bilingualism, just in its ridiculous extremes, and how we're willing to allow Quebec to trample over free speech rights to enforce their specialness. (WTF is wrong with this spell checker when it doesn't like specialness?) I'm kinda proud of bilingualism. Makes us seem more cosmopolitan.


Excellent points. The only caveat I'd add is that the Aboriginals could be seen as the third founding community as well. And it's also notable how some immigrants are using French, rather than English, to initially get on in Canadian society. They're making French Canada more diverse as well, even if it's going at a slower pace than English Canada.

As for Quebec, that province is in a pretty dicey situation in North America. Every other part of the continent has an English-speaking (or Spanish-speaking if you want to include Mexico) majority, with some recognition for minority languages (French in the other Canadian provinces, Spanish in several American states, etc.) Quebec, on the other hand, is not only the only part of North America where French is the majority, but it also has its own English-speaking minority to deal with. Hence Quebec has had to figure out how to maintain its own Francophone character while also accommodating its Anglophone minority.

For all the good he did in a number of areas, Trudeau really muddied the waters in regards to Quebec and how exactly it meshes with the rest of Canada. I'll explain some more if anyone's interested, but this post has gone on long enough...


Last edited by JaredMilne on Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:47 pm
 


JaredMilne JaredMilne:


Trudeau's efforts were undermined by his not even trying to explain to people outside Canada just why he was doing it. Many Albertans and other Westerners didn't understand the basis for bilingualism,


This sort of sounds like you're saying Westerners are outside Canada? Maybe that's true for Albertans, but not the other western provinces. And once Alberta runs out of oil they're be good Canadians again real fast.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:50 pm
 


andyt andyt:

This sort of sounds like you're saying Westerners are outside Canada? Maybe that's true for Albertans, but not the other western provinces. And once Alberta runs out of oil they're be good Canadians again real fast.


Mistake on my part. Fixed.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:58 pm
 


JaredMilne JaredMilne:
andyt andyt:

This sort of sounds like you're saying Westerners are outside Canada? Maybe that's true for Albertans, but not the other western provinces. And once Alberta runs out of oil they're be good Canadians again real fast.


Mistake on my part. Fixed.


Careful tho - that could have been a Freudian slip.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:10 pm
 


Being a European, I don't think it is a bad idea to speak more than one language. I think that both English and French should be mandatory in high school in all provinces and territories, at the same level. I think that for a country that is bi-lingual, everyone should be able to get the education to at least be able to converse in both languages.

Just my $0.02


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:13 pm
 


French or Spanish was mandatory when I went to school. It should start earlier than highschool tho - the earlier you get em, the better.

But I gotta say I felt ripped off. Went to Quebec with my highschool French, which I was assured would be appreciated. and they just rolled their eyes and answered in English. Did much better in France with it, even if they did tend to correct me a lot.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:19 pm
 


andyt andyt:
Thanos Thanos:
1) whatever it is the Sikhs and Hindus speak are more logical choices for a second language.


Punjabi and Hindi. Jeez. And Tagalog would be a better choice than Hindi.


If one were to look at the history of the Chinese in BC from the mid 1800's, with their work building the CPR, their work in the gold fields then the contributions they've made since then I think Chinese would be the logical choice for a second language in BC.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:23 pm
 


andyt andyt:
French or Spanish was mandatory when I went to school. It should start earlier than highschool tho - the earlier you get em, the better.

But I gotta say I felt ripped off. Went to Quebec with my highschool French, which I was assured would be appreciated. and they just rolled their eyes and answered in English. Did much better in France with it, even if they did tend to correct me a lot.

Looking at my kids, it is mandatory for 1 year in high school. They got their first French class in grade 5, from their regular teacher, and it is horrible, because her French is horrible and definitely not up to par. I don't know whether they try to teach French or Quebecois, but what I hear my kids speak (?!) is DEFINITELY NOT French.
My 14 year old will attend grade 9 next year, and there is no mandatory French class. She can choose between French or Spanish. She chose Spanish.

FYI, when I graduated high school, 2 languages were mandatory (as of grade 5, all through school: Dutch and English), with the option to take more. I took 4. (German and French)


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