[Bruce_the_vii]

…………………………Aligning Canadian Social Order

In Canada we have a divide between people with solid jobs and those who are insecure and low paid. With community co-operation this can be addressed, is not properly fixed. The co-operation would have to come in the form of wage restraint, inflationless wage settlements. In fact in the 17 years to 2008 there was an unbroken economic business expansion that depended on wage restraint. So actually we already have the community spirit required already.

The program I advocate revolves around legislating an aggressive minimum wage in the better cities of Canada. This is fair and reasonable because our immigration program causes a little unemployment which suppresses the de facto minimum wage. To correct for this effect you should legislate an aggressive minimum wage, say $12 an hour for adults. This is not a nanny program, this is economics.

At $12 an hour there would be a little inflation at the bottom, economic growth would slow because the drag at the bottom and the large low wage sector in cities would shrink some because of supply and demand. However the average job around and the average job being created would be slightly better than before and skew the average job upwards. This is opposed to the slipping of the average job that is going on presently.

That would be your starting point. You would then try to extend the business cycle with low inflation including inflationless wage increases. The Bank of Canada would be able to promote low interest rates and economic growth. You could then ease the minimum wage upward from $12 as long as there was growth. You could test the ability of the economy to grow better jobs with a program of sustain low interest rates.

The West in general is plagued by this divide between people with good jobs and the Outs. In Canada we could get ahead of the game by contouring growth as I’ve described. It would sell politically because jobs are progress and part of the purpose of Canada. More specifically it’d sell because the soft labour market affects every individual through the family, and friends, and good jobs are popular.

The subsidies in the nanny state would make the standard of living at the bottom higher than the minimum wage. The subsidies are substantial already so you may be talking of fairly equitable job market as the end result.

The difference of this plan with more socialism is it would slow growth to jobs that were higher value added. The jobs base would be improved rather than relying on taxes alone. If overall growth slowed you would take the difference out of immigration.

It would all be an experiment, I don’t know how far you could go. However you can definitely contour jobs in a country with mechanisms such as I describe.

[BartSimpson]

You and Andy partying together these days?

[Bruce_the_vii]

In France you have youth burning cars nightly because of the lack of opportunity. You hear of the occasional riot in France but what's unreported is it's a nightly event. It could happen in Canada.

[Tman1]

It did. Vancouver NHL playoffs and it was mostly rich white people.

[OnTheIce]

Bruce_the_vii wrote:

In France you have youth burning cars nightly because of the lack of opportunity. You hear of the occasional riot in France but what's unreported is it's a nightly event. It could happen in Canada.

$12 still isn't enough to live off of.

Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be permanent. We can't have a society where we aspire to be at the bottom of the pile.

[Wada]

No we can't, and we don't. That's why Canada is still one of the best countries to live in.

[CommanderSock]

Bruce_the_vii wrote:

In France you have youth burning cars nightly because of the lack of opportunity. You hear of the occasional riot in France but what's unreported is it's a nightly event. It could happen in Canada.

France's rigid labour laws are one of the major reasons why minorities there riot. If they stripped the labour laws to bare minimums, it would create more employment, not less. Minimum wage is not the issue, it's the fundamental health of the economy.

Germany doesn't even have a minimum wage and it's the most robust economy in Europe and has the highest rates of employment.

[martin14]

If the French stripped their labour laws, some of them would actually have to work.

Never happen, the unions would shit the bed.

[Bruce_the_vii]

OnTheIce wrote:

Bruce_the_vii wrote:

In France you have youth burning cars nightly because of the lack of opportunity. You hear of the occasional riot in France but what's unreported is it's a nightly event. It could happen in Canada.

$12 still isn't enough to live off of.

Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be permanent. We can't have a society where we aspire to be at the bottom of the pile.

The 2007 statistic is some 23% of Canadian workers are at or below $12 an hour. The competition to do a little better is fierce. You get Human Resources Canada doing all this training but it's to no effect because a short course isn't enough in view of the competition. So people are stuck.

I know some women that returned to work after raising a family. Some of them are simply not education oriented. They take these minimum wage jobs and work hard at them. They work hard all their life but a career is just not part of it. The economy needs unskilled workers and in our day and age it's people that have kids and give up on the career. Everyone doesn't not need to be career oriented, a leader.

[Bruce_the_vii]

martin14 wrote:

If the French stripped their labour laws, some of them would actually have to work.

Never happen, the unions would shit the bed.

I've never been to France but the reports you hear about the labour force are not good. For example there are still a number of communists. The thing is Canada has a middle way and is going to win. We work longer hours, restrict business less and don't spend so heavily on social programs. We are in fighting shape.

[OnTheIce]

Bruce_the_vii wrote:

OnTheIce wrote:

Bruce_the_vii wrote:

In France you have youth burning cars nightly because of the lack of opportunity. You hear of the occasional riot in France but what's unreported is it's a nightly event. It could happen in Canada.

$12 still isn't enough to live off of.

Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be permanent. We can't have a society where we aspire to be at the bottom of the pile.

The 2007 statistic is some 23% of Canadian workers are at or below $12 an hour. The competition to do a little better is fierce. You get Human Resources Canada doing all this training but it's to no effect because a short course isn't enough in view of the competition. So people are stuck.

I know some women that returned to work after raising a family. Some of them are simply not education oriented. They take these minimum wage jobs and work hard at them. They work hard all their life but a career is just not part of it. The economy needs unskilled workers and in our day and age it's people that have kids and give up on the career. Everyone doesn't not need to be career oriented, a leader.

So what do you propose?

Having children is a choice. Before I had my children, my wife and I sat down and discussed whether or not having children and 1 income would hurt us.

We need people to aspire to be something better than a clerk at a big-box retailer and make responsible choices.

Sure, we have some women returning to work who lack education and need a job but we cannot simply reward people who have made poor choices and lack responsibility with a great job with good pay.

It's a smack in the face to those who's made good choices and got some education to further them.

[andyt]

OnTheIce wrote:

Bruce_the_vii wrote:

In France you have youth burning cars nightly because of the lack of opportunity. You hear of the occasional riot in France but what's unreported is it's a nightly event. It could happen in Canada.

$12 still isn't enough to live off of.

Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be permanent. We can't have a society where we aspire to be at the bottom of the pile.

Yet many people do just that/ 1/4 of the work force earns within 1 1/4 of the minimum wage.

A $12 min wage would sure make a big diff for people at the bottom.

[OnTheIce]

andyt wrote:

OnTheIce wrote:

Bruce_the_vii wrote:

In France you have youth burning cars nightly because of the lack of opportunity. You hear of the occasional riot in France but what's unreported is it's a nightly event. It could happen in Canada.

$12 still isn't enough to live off of.

Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be permanent. We can't have a society where we aspire to be at the bottom of the pile.

Yet many people do just that/ 1/4 of the work force earns within 1 1/4 of the minimum wage.

A $12 min wage would sure make a big diff for people at the bottom.

Then let's assume they intend to work hard and advance, making more money as they do so.

People shouldn't be comfortable in a min-wage job, we should hope they aspire to be more and use the job as an opportunity.

Remember, min-wage is a start, many people advance quickly past that amount, especially in the retail sector.

[Bruce_the_vii]

OnTheIce wrote:

Then let's assume they intend to work hard and advance, making more money as they do so.

People shouldn't be comfortable in a min-wage job, we should hope they aspire to be more and use the job as an opportunity.

Remember, min-wage is a start, many people advance quickly past that amount, especially in the retail sector.

I call myself a "jobs activist", talk to rather a lot of people, and one of the features of our society is the Class War. In particular this comes out as the schism between people that spend time training and the working class. However in Canada the meritocracy we live in is well established but at the same time people don't believe that working 40 hours a week for $8 is a square deal. The flies in the ointment is the bottom is rather too large, it affects family and especially women that look after the kids and that the low minimum wage is a result of unemployment from our bureaucratic immigration program. So constantly harping that people should work hard avoids the problem that the issue is conflicted. We get it that people should work, that this is the basis of society, but we got some problems.

[OnTheIce]

Bruce_the_vii wrote:

OnTheIce wrote:

Then let's assume they intend to work hard and advance, making more money as they do so.

People shouldn't be comfortable in a min-wage job, we should hope they aspire to be more and use the job as an opportunity.

Remember, min-wage is a start, many people advance quickly past that amount, especially in the retail sector.

I call myself a "jobs activist", talk to rather a lot of people, and one of the features of our society is the Class War. In particular this comes out as the schism between people that spend time training and the working class. However in Canada the meritocracy we live in is well established but at the same time people don't believe that working 40 hours a week for $8 is a square deal. The flies in the ointment is the bottom is rather too large, it affects family and especially women that look after the kids and that the low minimum wage is a result of unemployment from our bureaucratic immigration program. So constantly harping that people should work hard avoids the problem that the issue is conflicted. We get it that people should work, that this is the basis of society, but we got some problems.

An activist that's yet to propose a solution, rather a bunch of words repeating yourself.

What's your solution?