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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:22 am
 


JaredMilne wrote:
PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:
I think the idea is totally ridiculous. With some exceptions, it means that Canadians get stuck with PMs from Quebec. It's interesting because up until Trudeau Sr, our PMs came from all over Canada. Since Trudeau Sr and including him, of the 8 PMs we've had, (not counting Turner because he never sat as PM nor Campbell because she wasn't actually elected to the position) 6 of them have been from Quebec. If you count Turner and Campbell as well that still means 60% of the PMs since and including Trudeau Sr have come from Quebec. Throw the Bloc into the mix as well and no wonder it's such a fucking struggle to get anything done/built outside of Quebec.

For point of reference, out of the 14 PM's prior to Trudeau Sr, only 3 were from Quebec. The Quebec dominance of the PMO came right after all the fucking "official bilingualism" bullshit. A $1.65 trillion waste of money since it's inception, and still counting.


I admit that helping to keep the country united and avoiding economic Armageddon is pretty penny-ante stuff, as is expanding the pool of skilled immigrants we can draw on, but I still think it was worth it.

Official bilingualism had NOTHING to do with uniting the country and everything to do with making Quebec the unofficial seat of power. And from what I've seen, Quebec has caused more harm to the ROC's economy than any benefit it's had.

Remember the kerfuffle over the LNG pipeline in BC? All the blockades and shit? Funny thing that. At the same time that was going on, Quebec had its own energy project on the go that included pipelines. No protests, no blockades, just Warren Buffet taking his $7 billion and walking away from the project due to the "political climate" here. Of course that was AFTER the BLOC stated they would block any move to support Alberta's fossil fuel industry. The irony there is friggin' palpable. So's the goddam hypocrisy.

Mulroney provided real nice incentives for Canada's pharmaceutical industry to relocate to Quebec. Not really seeing any economic benefit to the ROC there.

As for you suggestion that Official Bilingualism somehow expands the pool of skilled immigrants, aside from some kind of virtue signal on your part, I gotta wonder how. Any immigrants that speak French and not English are likely to settle in Quebec. That's no real benefit to the ROC.

For years (until the govt corruption got way out of hand) Quebec was Canada's capital of International HQ's. No spreading the wealth there, just Quebec-based PM's looking out for Quebec's and only Quebec's best interest.

Which then begs the question, how and why are the goddam BQ a federal party? Remember the death of the East Coast cod fishery? The BQ kept blocking federal attempts to help the Coasters out unless they got something out of it too. And the wimpy federal govt with it's Quebec-based PM didn't even bother trying to force it through. They just simply acquiesced to the BQ's demands.

Do you know how federal transfer payments work? They are based on provincial revenues. The various Quebec govts have kept those revenues (ie taxes, fees etc) intentionally low because they know the ROC will be forced to subsidize them. It's not that Quebec can't generate the revenues, they just don't want to. And why would they? Low taxes and shit are pretty popular with taxpayers, especially when you simply get the rest of the country to subsidize you. Yep, another massive benefit to the ROC.

This country needs all kinds of reform. Senate reform, election reform, language reform and ya know what? Not ONE of those things will change for the better simply though voting. As long as voters are willing to put up the shit that gets shoved in front of them, the "ruling class" has absolutely zero reason to change one goddam thing, unless it directly benefits them of course.

Trudeau continues the tradition of "Quebec first and only" by trying to engage in obstruction of justice over 9000 jobs and not all because SNC holds a 20% stake in the Quebec pension fund. Meanwhile, the same goof in Ottawa has been, at least in part, responsible for the loss of thousands of oil sector jobs in the West which also affects the downstream industries. He's also presided over the loss of 10's of thousands of more jobs in the same sector, counting projects that were either killed or pulled out of their own accord. Groper was concerned that SNC might pull up stakes and HQ elsewhere and that just couldn't be allowed to happen. Meanwhile Canada's largest energy company did just that, taking lots of jobs with it. Barely a whimper, if any, from the Fed though.

Sorry but Official Bilingualism has been nothing but a $1.65 trillion (and counting) fuckening.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:29 am
 


The perfect solution is to elect a hearing impaired person for leader. Then they can sign and English/French doesn't matter. Also a convenient excuse when they don't hear your demands.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:37 am
 


Are English-speaking politicians completely stunned or something? Look at the English spoken by their Quebec peers over the years - Parizeau, Bouchard, Duceppe, not to mention Charest. When I initially heard him speaking English on tv, I didn’t even realize his first language was French. Even Legault is pretty good. Somewhere south of Legault’s fluency in English should be the minimum standard of French expected of potential PMs, and if you’re not there yet, do what Harper did and get regular lessons. Show some effort at least. This isn’t an entry-level job we’re talking about.


Last edited by Sunnyways on Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:48 am
 


I agree that equalization is a rum old business. NL is bust but somehow we are a have province.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:59 pm
 


PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:
Official bilingualism had NOTHING to do with uniting the country and everything to do with making Quebec the unofficial seat of power. And from what I've seen, Quebec has caused more harm to the ROC's economy than any benefit it's had.

Remember the kerfuffle over the LNG pipeline in BC? All the blockades and shit? Funny thing that. At the same time that was going on, Quebec had its own energy project on the go that included pipelines. No protests, no blockades, just Warren Buffet taking his $7 billion and walking away from the project due to the "political climate" here. Of course that was AFTER the BLOC stated they would block any move to support Alberta's fossil fuel industry. The irony there is friggin' palpable. So's the goddam hypocrisy.


Uh huh...and how much of those blockades were actually organized by Quebec? And if Buffet walked away from Quebec's energy project because of the "political climate", then how successful was it really? And the Bloc's efforts to block any move to support our fossil fuel industry could be deflected by the fact that the Conservatives could support them on that.

And provincially Quebec has our back on supporting changes to the federal fiscal stabilization program and our criticisms of Bill C-69, not to mention importing almost half its domestically used oil from here in Alberta.

Mulroney provided real nice incentives for Canada's pharmaceutical industry to relocate to Quebec. Not really seeing any economic benefit to the ROC there.

PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:
As for you suggestion that Official Bilingualism somehow expands the pool of skilled immigrants, aside from some kind of virtue signal on your part, I gotta wonder how. Any immigrants that speak French and not English are likely to settle in Quebec. That's no real benefit to the ROC.

For years (until the govt corruption got way out of hand) Quebec was Canada's capital of International HQ's. No spreading the wealth there, just Quebec-based PM's looking out for Quebec's and only Quebec's best interest.

Which then begs the question, how and why are the goddam BQ a federal party? Remember the death of the East Coast cod fishery? The BQ kept blocking federal attempts to help the Coasters out unless they got something out of it too. And the wimpy federal govt with it's Quebec-based PM didn't even bother trying to force it through. They just simply acquiesced to the BQ's demands.

Do you know how federal transfer payments work? They are based on provincial revenues. The various Quebec govts have kept those revenues (ie taxes, fees etc) intentionally low because they know the ROC will be forced to subsidize them. It's not that Quebec can't generate the revenues, they just don't want to. And why would they? Low taxes and shit are pretty popular with taxpayers, especially when you simply get the rest of the country to subsidize you. Yep, another massive benefit to the ROC.

This country needs all kinds of reform. Senate reform, election reform, language reform and ya know what? Not ONE of those things will change for the better simply though voting. As long as voters are willing to put up the shit that gets shoved in front of them, the "ruling class" has absolutely zero reason to change one goddam thing, unless it directly benefits them of course.

Trudeau continues the tradition of "Quebec first and only" by trying to engage in obstruction of justice over 9000 jobs and not all because SNC holds a 20% stake in the Quebec pension fund. Meanwhile, the same goof in Ottawa has been, at least in part, responsible for the loss of thousands of oil sector jobs in the West which also affects the downstream industries. He's also presided over the loss of 10's of thousands of more jobs in the same sector, counting projects that were either killed or pulled out of their own accord. Groper was concerned that SNC might pull up stakes and HQ elsewhere and that just couldn't be allowed to happen. Meanwhile Canada's largest energy company did just that, taking lots of jobs with it. Barely a whimper, if any, from the Fed though.

Sorry but Official Bilingualism has been nothing but a $1.65 trillion (and counting) fuckening.


You know, I actually agree with you on the need for Senate reform and election reform-and while we're at it, let's rework the equalization formula so it doesn't hose Alberta the way the current version does. And I'm no more fond of the crap Trudeau pulled with SNC-Lavalin than you are.

The link I included above mentions the Quebec government's goal to continue expanding its GDP. And I'd also point out how equalization is based on every province's fiscal capacity. Not to mention that Quebec pays for a lot of its social programs with higher taxes. If Quebec succeeds at increasing its "fiscal autonomy", then that'll probably mean less equalization.

As for the Francophone immigrants, their increasing Quebec's pool of skilled immigrants would be beneficial anyway, since Quebec's economy is part of Canada's. But they don't universally settle in Quebec-I've seen how the local Franco-Albertan community in Edmonton has grown more and more diverse over the years. The same thing's happening in other provinces too:

Quote:

For a long time, Manitoba’s conseil jeunesse served only those whose mother tongue was French. Then it expanded to include people, like Bentley, who are francophone—and francophile—by choice. Bentley attended French-immersion school as a child. In grade nine, fearing he might lose his second language, he fought for the right to switch into an entirely French high school. There are twenty-three schools for francophone students scattered across the province, and they have been run, since 1994, by a school board of their own. R. S. Thornton must be turning in his grave.

Now the conseil jeunesse also strives to welcome multilingual newcomers from countries such as Congo and Rwanda. “The community has realized,” Bentley says, that “conversations can become more and more vibrant with these multicultural backgrounds.”



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:02 pm
 


I don’t expect fluent bilingualism but at least something better than Peter MacKay’s memorable “J’ai sera candidate”. You’d have to wonder if he’s capable of learning anything after that.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:40 pm
 


BeaverFever wrote:
bootlegga wrote:
I agree that learning other languages and cultures enriches your life, but I'm not convinced that is the real reason politicial leaders 'need' to learn French

The only reason federal political leaders need to speak English and French is to cater to voters in vote-rich Quebec.

However, with rapidly growing immigrant populations that speak Mandarin, Punjabi, Tagalog, and Arabic (each language has more than 1 million Canadians who speak them), you could make the case (admittedly a weak one) it would be helpful to be multi-lingual. I get that none of those languages are official languages, but under the guise of multi-culturalism, shouldn't our leaders be learning one or more of those languages too?

As an Anglophone who speaks a smattering of several other languages (but not French), I'm not that convinced that our leaders really need to speak French. The problem is that the Quebec media is as vocal about the issue as many in Alberta are about the oil industry, and so losing votes in Quebec can become a huge concern if a political leader isn't at least trying to learn the language (as Harper did after he became PM).


French is the official language of the second largest province and also an official language in another province, both of which were original founding members of Canada in 1867. It’s not just about total number of French-speakers nation-wide there are jurisdictions that rely on it. That’s what makes it quite different from immigrant languages


As I said, I get that none of those are official languages, but given multi-culturalism has been a bedrock of this country for about 50 years now, I think a case could be made to learn a smattering of other languages too.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:45 pm
 


JaredMilne wrote:
bootlegga wrote:

I agree that learning other languages and cultures enriches your life, but I'm not convinced that is the real reason politicial leaders 'need' to learn French

The only reason federal political leaders need to speak English and French is to cater to voters in vote-rich Quebec.

However, with rapidly growing immigrant populations that speak Mandarin, Punjabi, Tagalog, and Arabic (each language has more than 1 million Canadians who speak them), you could make the case (admittedly a weak one) it would be helpful to be multi-lingual. I get that none of those languages are official languages, but under the guise of multi-culturalism, shouldn't our leaders be learning one or more of those languages too?

As an Anglophone who speaks a smattering of several other languages (but not French), I'm not that convinced that our leaders really need to speak French. The problem is that the Quebec media is as vocal about the issue as many in Alberta are about the oil industry, and so losing votes in Quebec can become a huge concern if a political leader isn't at least trying to learn the language (as Harper did after he became PM).


One thing almost all those immigrants tend to have in common is that they work to learn one of our official languages in order to communicate with people outside their own ethnocultural group. People of different backgrounds, one who's Asian and another who's African, can use English to speak to each other as much as they can to any white people. I know-I've literally seen (and heard) it happen.

This happens with French too, and not just in Quebec. I attended the Campus Saint-Jean, the University of Alberta's francophone campus. Every year I was there, I saw more and more students of colour who came from the French-speaking parts of places like Africa and the Middle East. In recent years, the Campus started raising the flags of all the homelands of the students who were attending there in its front hall. There was perhaps nearly 20 flags the last time I visited the Campus, and I'd be surprised if it hasn't increased.

Here's former official language commissioner Graham Fraser talking about what happens with many immigrant languages:

Quote:

But if Canada were to introduce official languages based on immigrant patterns, the situation would be in flux with every passing generation, said Graham Fraser, Canada's commissioner for official languages. "If you look at the immigration patterns of this country, by and large immigrant languages do not survive the third generation," he said.

In 1951, for example, 450,000 Canadians spoke Ukrainian at home, Mr. Fraser said, and bureaucrats toyed with the idea of recognizing Ukrainian as an official language in Western Canada. The problem was that in 1981, that 450,000 had become 45,000, he said.

"The third-generation immigrant tends to use English and French as their dominant language, and yet you're not seeing that diminution on the part of the French-speaking community in Canada," Mr. Fraser said. "There are more French speakers in Canada now than there ever have been."



For those keeping score at home, that was a 90% drop in the number of people speaking Ukrainian over 30 years. Having French also allows us to attract a broader number of immigrants-witness how many Haitians now call Quebec home, including at least one who became Governor General. And as Beaver said, French is an official language recognized in the Constitution. Various court decisions have also recognized the validity of French in many provincial legislatures.

It's not necessary for the Premier of Alberta to speak French, although it certainly doesn't hurt. For a leader that's supposed to represent the whole country, though, it probably should be.


Agreed, and that is part of the reason why English is the most spoken langauge on earth (not as a first language, but period) - the ability to communicate, especially with people in wealthy western countries (i.e. trade).

With the world becoming multi-polar, I doubt that Mandarin will ever replace English as a common lingua franca, despite China's economic rise.


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