[Delwin]

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blog ... ehend.aspx

I guess we can add his promise not to make abortion an issue to the list of lies. Does Harper not realise that abortion is legal in this country ? I'm with Don Martin on this one, what the hell message is he trying to send when Canada, a country that allows abortion and actually pays for it tells third world countries that they should just keep using the barbaric methods they are which are endangering the mothers of those countries, whom are dying at the rate of one every 8 minutes.

How can he take one stance nationally, and a completely contradictory stance internationally and not expect to look like a jackass?

[herbie]

Because no matter how big a jackass he makes of himself, there's 30% of the population that are even bigger jackasses and will keep supporting him.

[Delwin]

Maybe, but what kind of a base is he trying to carve out? According to a recent Angus Reid poll:

(Angus Reid Global Monitor) - Canadians are divided on the role their public-run health care services should play in pregnancy termination, according to a poll by Angus Reid Public Opinion. 43 per cent of respondents believe the system should fund abortions whenever they are requested, while 41 per cent think it should only fund abortions in the event of medical emergencies.

Seven per cent of respondents believe the health care system should not fund abortions at all.

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/fu ... in_canada/

And so, Only 7% of those polled believe abortion should not be funded under any circumstance. Even if we assume every one of these respondents will vote Conservative, I think he is at a far greater risk of offending those conseratives who believe that the government has no right to tell women what they can or should do with their bodies.

I just really see this as a political mistake, and another look at his ultra right scary side.

[RUEZ]

herbie wrote:

Because no matter how big a jackass he makes of himself, there's 30% of the population that are even bigger jackasses and will keep supporting him.

And liberals wonder why they are no longer in power.

[Dragom]

And that's when half of us ran out to try and figure out who was.

[Delwin]

RUEZ wrote:

herbie wrote:

Because no matter how big a jackass he makes of himself, there's 30% of the population that are even bigger jackasses and will keep supporting him.

And liberals wonder why they are no longer in power.

Are you speaking on behalf of the 30% ?

[commanderkai]

Delwin wrote:

I just really see this as a political mistake, and another look at his ultra right scary side.

Why? It's not like he cut funding to all birth-control funding in Third World countries. So Canada isn't funding abortion on demand in countries when 48% of Canadians disagree with abortion on demand, or at least the government funded version of it. 0

[BeaverFever]

buzzword watch: "abortion on demand"

Ads the words 'on demand' in effort to reframe the issue as one of simply preventing the OVERUSE of abortion (presumably ok with abortion that is not 'on demand'...whatever that means - aren't all services demanded?). In reality is used indiscriminately to eliminate abortion altogether.

[herbie]

Actually 93% agree with abortion on demand.
I can make figures up in my head and post them too. The difference being I know I'm making them up.

[commanderkai]

BeaverFever wrote:

buzzword watch: "abortion on demand"

Ads the words 'on demand' in effort to reframe the issue as one of simply preventing the OVERUSE of abortion

Exactly. I don't think abortion should be performed whenever they're requested, when there is no medical or legal justification (as in, there is no risk to the mother's life, there was no rape, and it isn't incest). I especially disagree with late term abortions.

Look at the poll data: 7% of Canadians disapprove of abortion outright, and 41% of Canadians only support abortion in the case of medical emergency (or rape, or incest, I assume). The 43% state that they "believe the system should fund abortions whenever they are requested". Now....public funding of abortions whenever they are requested...sounds like supporting abortion whenever they are demanded.

Quote:

In reality is used indiscriminately to eliminate abortion altogether.

And that's not what I said at all. Nor has my personal belief of abortion ever fit into such a statement. Ever. Sure, in YOUR reality, that's what it means, but under my personal ideology and personal beliefs, it's not.

[commanderkai]

herbie wrote:

Actually 93% agree with abortion on demand.
I can make figures up in my head and post them too. The difference being I know I'm making them up.

Although I disagree with polls (made this apparently clear in a few threads), here's the numbers I used:

"(Angus Reid Global Monitor) - Canadians are divided on the role their public-run health care services should play in pregnancy termination, according to a poll by Angus Reid Public Opinion. 43 per cent of respondents believe the system should fund abortions whenever they are requested, while 41 per cent think it should only fund abortions in the event of medical emergencies.

Seven per cent of respondents believe the health care system should not fund abortions at all. "

Holy shit, they're mentioned in this thread already. Now, 7% against abortion entirely, and 41% only for abortion for emergency scenarios, that adds up to...48%.

[BeaverFever]

commanderkai wrote:

Exactly. I don't think abortion should be performed whenever they're requested, when there is no medical or legal justification (as in, there is no risk to the mother's life, there was no rape, and it isn't incest). I especially disagree with late term abortions.

Look at the poll data: 7% of Canadians disapprove of abortion outright, and 41% of Canadians only support abortion in the case of medical emergency (or rape, or incest, I assume). The 43% state that they "believe the system should fund abortions whenever they are requested". Now....public funding of abortions whenever they are requested...sounds like supporting abortion whenever they are demanded...

And that's not what I said at all. Nor has my personal belief of abortion ever fit into such a statement. Ever. Sure, in YOUR reality, that's what it means, but under my personal ideology and personal beliefs, it's not.

That's a valid position to take, although I disagree with it. With respect to the term "On Demand" it's used as a 'foot in the door' tactic by the US religious right that opposes all abortion, because there is no strict term for it. Somebody who is raped or has their life threatened by pregnancy still "demands" the abortion. The religious right states abortion should never ever be used, and if the mother has to die in order to bring a new life into this world, or raise her rapists baby then so be it, the baby should not be given a 'death sentance' for something it's not responsible for, they say.

With respect to that last point, why support the right to abortion for a woman who was raped and not a woman who had a condom break? What's the dif? It's an unwanted consequence that can result in an unwanted child brought up with neglect and possibly even abuse. And if some rapes invovled women who made 'poor choices' like wearing short skirts and partying with a buch of strange guys, then how does that differ from the woman who made the 'right choice' to use protection in consentual sex and STILL got pregnant? You're not ever ever ever going to stop people from having sex for reasons beside procreation, so the issue of unwanted pregnancies will always happen. And, like third world countries, we see in our own history that in such cases women will turn to dangerous "back alley" and "coat hanger" abortions if there is no safe alternative. Plus, lets not forget about all the guys who suddenly disappear when their girl gets pregnant or kick her in the stomach. Is that all worth it? Late term abortions

And if you want to battle polls, wikipedia shows the following for canada:

In a Gallup Canada poll taken September 2004, 54% of respondents said they personally thought abortion was "morally acceptable."

In a Gallup Canada poll taken April 2005, 52% of respondents say they would like to see Canadian abortion laws "remain the same," 20% say they would like the laws to be "less strict," while 24% say they would like the laws to be "more strict."

In a June 2008 Angus Reid Strategies poll, almost half of respondents (46%) believe abortion should be permitted in all cases. Roughly one-in-five Canadians (19%) would subject abortion to greater restrictions than now, 22 per cent would allow the procedure only in cases such as rape, incest and to save the woman's life, and seven per cent would only permit abortion to save the woman's life.

[herbie]

And what percentage of respondents were men?
As their opinions are invalid. Moot. Void.
And ducks the issue of a PM from a country that doesn't even have an abortion law deciding that 'we' can't support them elsewhere.
It's as disgusting as him personally deciding when he will stand up for Canadians or anyone else facing capital punishment and when he won't.
The issues have been decided, they are the stance of the country and it doesn't matter that he or anyone else doesn't like it, they have to stand by it.

[Pseudonym]

Why the hell are men's opinions not valid on abortion? I'm calling BS on that.

EDIT: It would be better to be specific. Even if you consider that an abortion is purely a matter of choice on the part of a woman with regards to their own body, that is itself and opinion on abortion. You can't make a statement like that and remain logically coherent. Unless, of course, you are a woman, in which case the requirement for coherency is dropped anyway.

[commanderkai]

BeaverFever wrote:

With respect to that last point, why support the right to abortion for a woman who was raped and not a woman who had a condom break? What's the dif?

Outside of the trauma that rape causes, along with shame, etc etc etc. The emotional damage rape can cause can lead girls to not make the "logical" choices (Don't jump on this, I couldn't find a better term) after the rape. You know, call the police, have them do a rape kits, get the morning after pill, so on so forth. This can lead to the less likely chance of conventional birth control working.

I believe that there are a variety of birth control options, ranging from the pill, to the morning after pill, those ring things I remember seeing commercials for, etc etc etc. There are a HUGE variety of birth control methods in existence. Surely any individual responsible for their health would use more than just a condom (which has...what, an 12% fail rate, even when you put it on properly?).

My personal opinion is that sex is not just some game, but a life choice. You have sex with a girl (or a guy), you're making a choice to accept the consequences that sex might have, be it an STD or a pregnancy or whatever else. A rape is not a choice. That is FORCED upon a girl/woman, who has her choice taken away from her. She should not need to suffer needlessly for something she has no choice over. I won't blame her for following the right "logic" after a rape, considering I have absolutely no idea what goes through a rape victim's mind.

Quote:

It's an unwanted consequence that can result in an unwanted child brought up with neglect and possibly even abuse.

That's the wonders of consequences. They're not all good. How many Family Planning clinics are there in Canada/USA? More than enough, I'd assume, to give any individual, responsible or not, access to the pill or a few condoms.

Quote:

And if some rapes invovled women who made 'poor choices' like wearing short skirts and partying with a buch of strange guys, then how does that differ from the woman who made the 'right choice' to use protection in consentual sex and STILL got pregnant?

I'm sorry...What? There is a HUGE FUCKING DIFFERENCE between rape, and a woman who willingly had sex and didn't take enough precautions. Don't fucking try to make that comparison again. Fucking disgusting that you even tried.

Quote:

Late term abortions

And if you want to battle polls, wikipedia shows the following for canada:

Sigh. A) I despise polls. B) I despise pissing contests over polls C) Politicians today won't make political decisions based on 6, 5, or 2 year old polls, but ones taken in more recent weeks or months.