[Canadian_Mind]

andyt wrote:

DanSC wrote:

Sometimes they riot even when they have such things.

That's the Berlin Wall coming down. You calling that a riot?

I would. And just because it's a riot doesn't mean it is a bad thing.

[andyt]

The guy is a bit of a nutcase.

Quote:

And I am not talking solely of lifelong welfare recipient or habitual EI claimants. I am talking about middleclass voters who screech at the mere suggestion that they pay a portion of their "free" health care, education or pensions. I'm referring to causepleaders who run to government commissions claiming infringement of their rights every time fate deals them a less-than-ideal hand. Even people who think there is a social good in bicycle paths or parks or waterfront boardwalks, and therefore a common obligation to fund them through tax dollars.

Lifelong welfare recipients: In BC, single, employable people can only receive welfare 2 years out of 5. Even before that passed, there were very few single, employable people living on lifelong welfare - it just doesn't pay enough. You want to force unemployable people off welfare you just get more homelessness. In Calgary business people got together to provide housing because they figured out homelessness is far more expensive than welfare.

EI - if employers are constantly laying off people we need some sort of cushion. But giving a fisherman who earned 50k in a short fishing season EI for the rest of the year doesn't make sense, I agree. But then don't deduct EI from his pay, and mostly those days are gone anyway.

Adding user fees to healthcare just discourages people from getting timely care so that they have to go in for much more expensive care later. Just keep a tight lid on not providing unnecessary care and cut costs by using nurse practitioners instead of doctors for the simpler stuff.

Uni has never been free in Canada. (It's subsidized, which is a good way of promoting social mobility.) Is he seriously suggesting we charge for k-12 now? Seriously?

Our pensions aren't free either - just look at your pay stub. OAS is free - it's a form of welfare, income based - see above about the costs of creating a bunch of senior homeless people.

Bike paths - I'm sure the caraholics will agree with him we don't need them. (And I'm fine with bike lanes and routes that don't cost much to put in at all) But parks and boardwalks? Seriously?

[sandorski]

Guy is partially right, people want stuff, but are unwilling to Pay for it. Partially wrong, that it's the fault of Liberals(the political spectrum, not the party--although he probably thinks that as well.

The level of Government involvement in our society that exists is not only necessary, but it will continue to increase. Sorry, it is just necessary. We left the state of total self reliance a very long time ago. Who here has grown up knowing someone who was a Nomad, following the herds which fed and clothed them? Not one of us(barring someone here who is an immigrant from some parts of Africa or perhaps some pocket elsewhere in the Third World). Some of us here may have had experience with partial Self Reliance, growing up on a Farm where some Food was grown for their own consumption, but even so it has been a very long time(a century or so)when a majority were Agrarian and largely dependent on their own labour to survive. It is simply impossible and even ridiculous to even try to be that self reliant in this day and age with our population levels. There is simply not enough Land for it.

Not only a lack of Land for it, but a lack of Time also. Do you think we would be typing shit on the Internet if we had to grow our own Food and do the other tasks for Self Reliance? Ever wonder why the massing(Urban centers) of the less Self Reliant is also the center of Innovation and Science/Technological Advancement? This is not a coincidence, but a consequence of becoming increasingly reliant on the Community rather than the Self. Free Time is one of the most valuable of Resources and it only exists due to these factors that the author is railing against.

Back to where he is correct, unwillingness to Pay. This is largely a Political issue. Politicians like to make Promises that can't be kept, at least not in a reasonable manner. Just look at the Bush Tax Cuts, for eg, they were simply foolish to begin with, but they were popular and despite them being unsustainable, Politicians to this day still insist on maintaining them. This is also partially the fault of Tax Payers as well, simply for not having the financial acumen to see this, but instead completely trusting the Politicians whispering sweet nothings into their ears. Sorry, but someone has to Pay for the Services rendered by Government. Not through Loans, but through Taxes. That is where the US has failed and where many in the EU have mostly failed.

The solution, for some, is to simply cut Government Programs back to the Tax Rate(not sure if they even know what this is)they prefer. However, it seems many of these people are clueless as to what parts of their Lives are directly affected by which Programs are provided by Government. So they get angry on both sides of the argument. In the EU they're angry because the facade caused by Deficits/Fraudulent Accounting taking away their Programs. In the US, so far, they are angry because of a perceived over burdensome Tax Rate, all the while receiving Services whose true costs continue to be hidden by Deficits/Fraudulent Accounting and have been for 30+ years. I suspect their anger will soon look very similar to EU anger.

[andyt]

sandorski wrote:

Guy is partially right, people want stuff, but are unwilling to Pay for it. Partially wrong, that it's the fault of Liberals(the political spectrum, not the party--although he probably thinks that as well.

The level of Government involvement in our society that exists is not only necessary, but it will continue to increase. Sorry, it is just necessary. We left the state of total self reliance a very long time ago. Who here has grown up knowing someone who was a Nomad, following the herds which fed and clothed them? Not one of us(barring someone here who is an immigrant from some parts of Africa or perhaps some pocket elsewhere in the Third World). Some of us here may have had experience with partial Self Reliance, growing up on a Farm where some Food was grown for their own consumption, but even so it has been a very long time(a century or so)when a majority were Agrarian and largely dependent on their own labour to survive. It is simply impossible and even ridiculous to even try to be that self reliant in this day and age with our population levels. There is simply not enough Land for it.

Not only a lack of Land for it, but a lack of Time also. Do you think we would be typing shit on the Internet if we had to grow our own Food and do the other tasks for Self Reliance? Ever wonder why the massing(Urban centers) of the less Self Reliant is also the center of Innovation and Science/Technological Advancement? This is not a coincidence, but a consequence of becoming increasingly reliant on the Community rather than the Self. Free Time is one of the most valuable of Resources and it only exists due to these factors that the author is railing against.

Back to where he is correct, unwillingness to Pay. This is largely a Political issue. Politicians like to make Promises that can't be kept, at least not in a reasonable manner. Just look at the Bush Tax Cuts, for eg, they were simply foolish to begin with, but they were popular and despite them being unsustainable, Politicians to this day still insist on maintaining them. This is also partially the fault of Tax Payers as well, simply for not having the financial acumen to see this, but instead completely trusting the Politicians whispering sweet nothings into their ears. Sorry, but someone has to Pay for the Services rendered by Government. Not through Loans, but through Taxes. That is where the US has failed and where many in the EU have mostly failed.

The solution, for some, is to simply cut Government Programs back to the Tax Rate(not sure if they even know what this is)they prefer. However, it seems many of these people are clueless as to what parts of their Lives are directly affected by which Programs are provided by Government. So they get angry on both sides of the argument. In the EU they're angry because the facade caused by Deficits/Fraudulent Accounting taking away their Programs. In the US, so far, they are angry because of a perceived over burdensome Tax Rate, all the while receiving Services whose true costs continue to be hidden by Deficits/Fraudulent Accounting and have been for 30+ years. I suspect their anger will soon look very similar to EU anger.