[57Dana]

BartSimpson wrote:

Fifeboy, private property rights are the very foundation of human rights.

There is no right to free speech if you are not free because someone else owns you.

You can't have a right to keep and bear arms if you can't own your own firearm.

You don't need to worry about police invading your home without a warrant because, well, you don't own it, do you?

And why complain about your wages when they aren't yours anyways?

You can't even own your clothes unless that right is respected.

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Human Rights flow in a logical pattern.

One must first have the Right to Life. Without existence rights are irrelevant. Ask anyone who has been aborted and they'd confirm this for you....if they could.

Liberty or Freedom comes next. This is where inherent property rights first surface because the assumption of Liberty is that all persons own themselves. Ownership of your person is inherent to you as a person.

Freedom of expression, religion, association and etc. conclude that as the owner of your self you have the right to speak and associate as you see fit. Likewise, other people have a right to ignore you.

The Right to Keep and Bear Arms flows from the right to exist. If someone tries to deprive you of your right to live you MUST have the right to defend yourself with equal or greater force to assert your right to live. It matters not who it is who unjustly tries to deprive you of your life, you MUST have this right or else the first right is null.

The right to own property then becomes intangible and inseparable from the others because you must be free to own your self and you must be free to own and control the means of your right to defend your life.


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Now what REALLY bothers me here is that men and women have died to secure these rights for you and you're just frivolously tossing them away to fulfill some...what? Some socialist or statist viewpoint some pinko-reject taught you in school?

These are YOUR rights we're talking about here, not just abstract concepts for an intellectual argument, but things that have a very tangible effect on your daily life. It is because your rights are respected that you aren't going to die for our disagreement here.

I can show you countless examples of places where your very words will get you killed.

People like me fight to preserve these rights for people like you and I don't much appreciate the idea that friends of mine who will never see their children grow up nor will they ever get the opportunity to enjoy the rights they fought for died in vain when you so readily dismiss what they bled and died for.

Easily the most eloquent description of the importance of the ancient common law right of property I've ever read. Can I copy this whole and use it all over the web?
Dana

[fifeboy]

57Dana wrote:

Easily the most eloquent description of the importance of the ancient common law right of property I've ever read. Can I copy this whole and use it all over the web?
Dana

[CitizenX]

Under Statism, government is no longer a policeman, but a gang of thugs with the legal power to initiate force in any manner they please against a legally disarmed citizen.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Just about every civilized country on earth has some measure of gun control. The ones that have little to none include, the US, Mexico, Cuba, North Korea and several nations ruled by Sharia Law. Yep, the US is in goooood company there

And before someone mentions the Swiss, they are NOT a direct parallel to the US.
In Switzerland, those with military training are required by law to keep their weapons at home. Strangely enough, even they have laws regarding automatic weapons. Swiss that have been issued automatic assault weapons are also required to keep them in their homes BUT, the weapon must be locked up and secured and the bolt must be locked up and secured in a different spot.
They are also supplied with gov't issued ammunition (50 rds worth) which has very close tabs kept on it.
For those that have retired, they have the option of keeping their equipment including the firearms. If they choose to keep them, anyone issued a fully auto weapon is required to return it to the manufacturer to have the fully auto function removed.
So, even those WITH military training but are retired, are NOT permitted to own fully automatic weapons.
Unlike the US where any idiot with an IQ of 80 and no training of any sort can purchase an AR-15,-18

[uwish]

well, usually your post are more enlightening and factual. First off, Mexico has amung the STRICTEST gun laws of any nation on earth. Getting caught even with 1 bullet can land you in jail for life. Hum, but then all this gun violence in Mexico must be bad reporting eh? I mean can't be!!

Cuba, much to your likely surprise, has some strict laws as well, like civilians can not own firearms, period.

Next point, you can not own or buy a fully automatic firearm in the US. Just like Canada, they are prohibited but there are people with licenses that owned automatic rifles etc BEFORE the law was enacted and who are grandfathered. I can also add that I own an AR-15 rifle here in Canada, fully legally might I add.

Last point (for now) all nations with strict gun control tend upwards in violent crime rate. UK, NZ, AU are all examples of this. The US violent crime rate however, is dropping 3X faster than ours..hum...seems to poke some holes in your line of thinking.

As much as you WANT to believe that gun control works, it simply doesn't. You only need to look at our own rediculous gun laws to know that.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

uwish wrote:

well, usually your post are more enlightening and factual. First off, Mexico has amung the STRICTEST gun laws of any nation on earth. Getting caught even with 1 bullet can land you in jail for life. Hum, but then all this gun violence in Mexico must be bad reporting eh? I mean can't be!!

Actually, quite the opposite. The only firearms that are prohibited to the general population are those manufactured specifically for the police and military. Mexicans HAVE the right to possess firearms AND ammunition but only for home and property defense. Your 1 bullet can land you in jail for life scenario applies to those crossing into Mexico. Mexico actually has the right to keep and bear arms written into its constitution. Although not as liberal as the US, it is still an enshrined right.

uwish wrote:

Cuba, much to your likely surprise, has some strict laws as well, like civilians can not own firearms, period.

Cubans, much to your likely surpise, cannot own long-guns. Handguns however are permitted.

uwish wrote:

Next point, you can not own or buy a fully automatic firearm in the US. Just like Canada, they are prohibited but there are people with licenses that owned automatic rifles etc BEFORE the law was enacted and who are grandfathered. I can also add that I own an AR-15 rifle here in Canada, fully legally might I add.

Uhhhh wrong. There are currently 40 states which allow for civilian possession AND purchase of full auto weapons, unless those laws have been changed since 2010.

uwish wrote:

Last point (for now) all nations with strict gun control tend upwards in violent crime rate. UK, NZ, AU are all examples of this. The US violent crime rate however, is dropping 3X faster than ours..hum...seems to poke some holes in your line of thinking.

As much as you WANT to believe that gun control works, it simply doesn't. You only need to look at our own rediculous gun laws to know that.

Hmmmm, seems Canada's violent crime rate has actually been dropping over the last several years, as well as the overall crime rate, and all without the need for walking around armed.
While you may feel that the faster drop in crime rate in the US is a result of CCW and similar laws, I call it an adjustment period. Do you honestly believe that with CCW in effect, that criminals are suddenly going to become gainfully employed taxpaying members of society? Criminals adjust. Once they realize that people are armed and the rules have changed, their methods will become more ruthless. They'll just shoot first instead of giving you the option of handing whatever over.
How effective do you think CCW will be in protecting law abiding people, say someone working at a convenience store, when a robber comes in and just shoots them and takes what he wants? Never mind your ordinary dumb criminals, what about those that are in need of their fix?(crackheads, meth-heads etc) These people are already unstable, if shooting you is going to make it easier to get your money, they'll fucking well shoot you.

Mark my words and save this post somewhere. I will almost guarantee you that the violent crime rate in the US will increase to beyond pre-CCW levels once the "honeymoon" phase is over.

[uwish]

honey moon phase? how long is that? it's already well on it's way to two decades.

[BartSimpson]

PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:

There are currently 40 (US) states which allow for civilian possession AND purchase of full auto weapons, unless those laws have been changed since 2010.

Fully automatic weapons have been the sole province of regulation by the US Federal Government since 1934 (see the link). While states may or may not have laws on their books regarding these weapons those laws are effectively nullified by the Federal law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

Ironically, this means that while New York City may have had a ban on handguns for some forty years in all that time it was still possible for a NYC resident to obtain a Federal permit for a fully automatic weapon and then keep it in NYC without a care about the opinions of NYC law.