[Gunnair]

Thanos wrote:

I'd like to know exactly what the Afghans were doing, technique-wise, to these prisoners before I agree that any of it was allegedly "torture". If it turns out to be no more that prison guards slapping them around or administering the occasional beating then it'll mean once again that the current Opposition is just being their typical douchbaggy selves and trying to score points off of Harper as usual. At that point I'm going to go out, try to find the nearest admitted Liberal I can, and then drop kick him square in the nuts as hard as possible.

They've fucked over the Forces before just for the sake of their own political benefit. If this whole episode turns out to be just more ideological tactics then it'll just confirm that the Opposition is exactly the slime that I always knew that they were.

Agreed.

[EyeBrock]

Gunnair wrote:

EyeBrock wrote:

No patronizing. I say it as it is mate. Having spent my ten in various Third World fun places I'm semi-versed in what our guys our going through in Afghanistan. Plus I saw a few of my mates go home p-stropped to the floor of a C130.
No knock on you doing the coastal defence job. It’s a role that needs professionals.

I just think that six months in a total shit-hole may have an influence on your attitude.

I have to admit, I'm puzzled at what you think my attitude is.

I think we, the CF, did everyhting right. No if ands or buts. We followed SOPs and sorted out a morally bad situation as best as possible.

The politicans have made the military's job very difficult by putting the CF between an ethical rock and a moral hard place wrt prisoner transfers by not coming clean with the public that the military will be placed in an ethical dilemma. Though the government will take most of the heat, the military will be tainted simply because they were Johhny on the spot.

Try not to assume to much here, with respect to my attitude. I have far more of a vested interest in the military as a participant than you do as a spectator.

By attitude I meant you got defensive for no reason. I wasn't having a go at you. And I still disagree with you. As a 'spectator', albeit one that has seen combat, I can see things about the CF that an outsider observes that might be missed by those still in a regular CF unit.

Besides the odd lefty whacko the CF has a very good reputation with the Canadian public. I've been turning out to our Region's Rememberance day parades since I got here in 1995. The public participation in these parades has rocketed. This year in Burlington we could hardly hear the pipes over the applause as the local Militia unit marched up Brant Street.

The same attitude of support bordering on hero-worship is prevalent in the UK too. For many years the CF was regarded with nochalant disdain and many civvies saw the CF as a bit of a joke, not up for a fight, full of fat chicks and guys with moustaches.

That has changed. Canadians, (save the rabid lefties) are once again proud of their fighting units. People listen to what CF superstars such as Hillier say and the military matter again. This mud thrown at the CF by Colvin and the media won't stick.

[EyeBrock]

herbie wrote:

EyeBrock wrote:

Herbie, how do you think Afghanistan and all the other Third World countries do business?

They beat people for the simplest offence. Women are chattel. Petty thieves have their hands chopped off. Political rivals are killed. This is reality.

We in the 'West' are lucky. We believe in human rights, freedom of speech and democracy.

We're lucky? Did someone else come spill their blood so we got to where we did?

What the hell does that have to do with us playing Pontius Pilate with prisoners?
Forget what happened to the last Cdn unit that really did abuse prisoners? Canadians don't support torture. Not half, not a quarter, none of us do.

Plenty of people spilled their blood to get us where we are.

And the disbanding a regiment with a proud history because of a company of ill-disciplined murderous idiots is a stain that the Liberals will forever wear.

[Akhenaten]

MacKay: "I never received any word about torture from this diplomat."

Colvin: "I sent emails but did not use the word torture or mention torture"


Where's the debate?

[Mawpe]

Lemmy wrote:

Who cares what "half of Canadians" believe? "Half of Canadians" are morons. Just because people believe the Earth is flat doesn't make it so. I'm more concerned about the truth than what people believe.

I'll comment on your last sentence and leave the other assessments of yours alone.
You have made an excellent point that far too many Canadians are over-looking the truth and instead resorting to their political head-hunting natures. The fact is that there should be an inquiry by all NATO countries into these allegations of torture brought forward by reliable people in the "know". If the Afghan security forces submit prisoners to torture then all human beings should be morally outraged. Our soldiers are fighting and some dying to bring peace to a nation that has endured decades of violence. If the authorities in charge are using extrodinary renedering of prisoners, then it is our duty as moral human beings to leave their country, as when we invaded it, in a perpetual state of civil war.
I haven't heard one Canadian speak up in disgust if the allegations are true. All I have heard, even by our own politically charged media, is the call for heads to role in our government, as if the war was still something of a humanitarian effort. Shame on everyone who overlooks the truth of inhumanity in order to satisfy their own political bias. I wouldn't piss on the best part of those insensitve Canadians even if they were afire. It is disgusting to proceed with any internal governmental inquiry of our own blunderings if the screams are still being heard in the well-hidden torture chambers of a barbaric leader.
Whatever happens to McKay, Harper, or any other preceeding Canadian politician will inevitably take its course as Canadian moral consciousness will function as the judge and jury, but thats only if we still have any left.