[Gunnair]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/11/25/colvin-harris-decima-poll.html

[Mr_Canada]

Your move, Harper.

[Gunnair]

No matter what, it's going to stick. The Liberals have unfortunately found some traction on this, and the lack of brutal honesty in the Conservatives and Liberal government before them have ensured this.

No one has done any expectation management on this and laid it out to the public what the alternatives would be if the likely scenario of torture occured.

Now it's coming back to bite them. I just hope it spills over to when the Liberals were in power and they take some heat to.

[Mr_Canada]

Gunnair wrote:

Now it's coming back to bite them. I just hope it spills over to when the Liberals were in power and they take some heat to.

NDP rise in polls in the forecast?

[Gunnair]

Mr_Canada wrote:

Gunnair wrote:

Now it's coming back to bite them. I just hope it spills over to when the Liberals were in power and they take some heat to.

NDP rise in polls in the forecast?

Doubt it. It'll take some monumental political gaffs for Joe Public to shove their head up their ass enough to put an NDP government in power.

[Mr_Canada]

Oh no, never in government. Harper and Iggy would have to do an amatuer version of two girls one cup live on CBC before the NDP got into power. Perhaps like, a 10 point distribution amongst the joke parties (Greens, NDP, BQ).

[Lemmy]

Who cares what "half of Canadians" believe? "Half of Canadians" are morons. Just because people believe the Earth is flat doesn't make it so. I'm more concerned about the truth than what people believe.

[Akhenaten]

Mr_Canada wrote:

Your move, Harper.

He doesn't have to move at all. If there's any guilt here both parties share it and it's obvious, so he doesn't have to do anything but let the Liberals continue to hang themselves. In fact his 'best move' is just to sit still. We've recently had Hiller come forward with information that difuses this quite a bit -- with his book out recently criticizing both Cons and Libs it only looks like he's presenting non-bias information. So has McKenzie. You listen to those guys and you see right away there's not much fire to this smoke, and if there is it's going to hurt both parties equally.

At the end of the day when the dust settles I'm betting this is going to have the same result as other recent Conservative 'scandals': the Liberals are going to lose 2 more points in the polls.

[Akhenaten]

A good opinion from McKenzie:

Quote:

Once again, and to no surprise, “gotcha” politics has reared its ugly head on Parliament Hill.

The evidence given by foreign service officer Richard Colvin to a House of Commons committee regarding alleged abuse and even torture of Canadian-captured detainees by Afghan prison authorities has consumed Question Period for days. Serious discussions of the mission in Afghanistan, long overdue, have been thwarted by questions regarding who knew what and when.

With due respect, a Commons committee is probably one of the worst forums to deal with the matter of prisoner abuse and potential Canadian complicity. Names of highly respected individuals have been dragged through the mud with no chance to defend themselves. Statements made by witnesses, including Mr. Colvin, are accepted by some and rejected by others, and the opinions of committee members are entirely predictable, depending on their political affiliation.

Unchallenged statements have made the headlines in the popular press. “Nearly 600 detainees may have been turned over to Afghan security forces.” This fact, which should be a source of pride, is described as “six times as many detainees” as the British handed over in the same period.

There is a pretty good reason for the big difference. The British weren't in Taliban-dominated southern Afghanistan during a good deal of that same period. Parliamentary debate in Britain and the Netherlands delayed the troops' arrival by several months.

The tardy arrival of British and Dutch contingents also delayed the North Atlantic Treaty Organization headquarters, dictating that the Canadian battle group operate for the first half of 2006 as a component of the U.S.-led Operation Enduring Freedom.

Also contributing to the difference in the numbers of prisoners handed over, and contrary to many recent erroneous opinions on the subject, Helmand province was relatively quiet when the British contingent arrived. Meanwhile, the Canadian battle group had been fighting battles with the Taliban in Kandahar for more than four months, taking a lot of prisoners.

When the NATO headquarters assumed command in the south on July 31, 2006, surprisingly, there was no alliance policy for the handling of detainees other than holding them for no more than 96 hours before releasing them or handing them over to Afghan authorities. It was left to each of the member nations to decide on any follow-up action.

Turning prisoners over to the authorities of the sovereign nation that the United Nations and NATO had come to support was certainly not an unreasonable decision. After the suicide-bomber killing of diplomat Glyn Berry, there was a dearth of Canadian civilians serving in Afghanistan, particularly in the south. Canadians were fighting major battles and the objective was to remove as many Taliban from the Canadian area of responsibility as possible. After an initial interrogation, those who were captured were transferred to Afghan authorities.

As evidence surfaced suggesting that prisoners were being abused, Canada developed a new protocol, implemented in May of 2007, that included monitoring the location of detainees in the prison system, follow-up interviews with them and frequent visits to Afghan prisons (more than 180 in the past 18 months) by qualified personnel.

Returning to the issue of hope trumping common sense as we wait for the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan to treat the detainee matter in a non-partisan way, there is a much better solution staring us in the face.

In the wake of the Somalia inquiry and resulting reviews of Canadian Forces policy, the Military Police Complaints Commission, an independent, quasi-judicial agency, was established in 1998.

Two and a half years ago, two complaints regarding the very issue currently being debated in Parliament were filed with the MPCC. Its efforts to proceed in a timely manner have been thwarted as lawyers on both sides argued whether the MPCC's mandate permitted it to investigate the charges that the Canadian Military Police turned detainees over to Afghan authorities knowing they would be abused. It was judged that the issue was an operational matter and not within the commission's jurisdiction. The hearings were suspended a few weeks back.

A public inquiry would be a colossal waste of taxpayers' money. The government should put the file back into the MPCC's lap and direct all players to co-operate. The commission has the highly qualified staff necessary to get to the truth of the matter in the most cost-effective manner.

[ridenrain]

Exactly. More "Gotcha" politics.

Raise a huge stink in the media then run a poll so it looks like people care.
Their desperate to create a wave they can surf in on but the timing is all wrong.

[2Cdo]

Lemmy wrote:

Who cares what "half of Canadians" believe? "Half of Canadians" are morons. Just because people believe the Earth is flat doesn't make it so. I'm more concerned about the truth than what people believe.

Truer words were never spoken.

[EyeBrock]

I like it that the Libs tried to stop another diplomat who had contrary views on Colvin giving evidence.
All that blustering and it's now pretty obvious they are just playing partisan politics on it.

This is a tainted chalice that the Libs are trying to drink from. The military are fast becoming a sacred cow in the eyes of the public.

Do you think they care if the Afghans are torturing other Afghans who are suspected Taliban? Only the partisans and the terrorist apologists really place the welfare of Afghani detainees over our guys getting killed by IED's.

The public see coffins of our soldiers being driven along the 401. That's a powerful image and one that resonates with the whole of Canada, whether they believe that torture is going on or not.

The Liberals are picking on the wrong target yet again.

[ridenrain]

You have to know how important to them when they use it to beg for more money...

Quote:

From: “Rocco Rossi” <info@email.liberal.ca>
Subject: Help us uncover the truth / Aidez-nous à découvrir la vérité

Le français suit

Friend–

Donate now. Help us uncover the truth. Canada’s reputation as a human rights champion is on the line. Let’s stop Stephen Harper before he makes Canada a place we can’t recognize.

The Afghan detainee scandal has the government’s spin machine on overdrive. First the Conservatives called Richard Colvin, the courageous public servant who testified about prisoner abuse at a parliamentary committee last week, a Taliban “dupe.” Now, we’ve learned that Mr. Colvin copied the Office of the Minister of Foreign Affairs on his warnings, suggesting that those at the highest levels of government were aware of the situation.

It’s textbook US Republican-style attack politics, except this time it’s undermining Canada’s mission to bring democracy and respect for the rule of law to Afghanistan. We owe it to our troops, our diplomats, and to Canada’s international reputation to find the truth about what happened. In times like these, no one can afford to sit on the political sidelines.

Your contribution of $25, $50 or $100 today will help the Liberal Party uncover the truth. Please give as generously as you are able.

Thank you,

Rocco Rossi
National Director, Liberal Party of Canada

PS. Your donation right now is timely for tax reasons, too. Political donations entitle you to a tax credit of up to 75 per cent. That means that the after-tax net cost of your $100 donation will be as little as $25. So please make a donation now and help the Liberal Party uncover the truth

Better get your check in the mail soon Derby.

[Gunnair]

EyeBrock wrote:

I like it that the Libs tried to stop another diplomat who had contrary views on Colvin giving evidence.
All that blustering and it's now pretty obvious they are just playing partisan politics on it.

This is a tainted chalice that the Libs are trying to drink from. The military are fast becoming a sacred cow in the eyes of the public.

Do you think they care if the Afghans are torturing other Afghans who are suspected Taliban? Only the partisans and the terrorist apologists really place the welfare of Afghani detainees over our guys getting killed by IED's.

The public see coffins of our soldiers being driven along the 401. That's a powerful image and one that resonates with the whole of Canada, whether they believe that torture is going on or not.

The Liberals are picking on the wrong target yet again.

I disagree. The military is no teflon organization here. A lot of people disagree with the war and the military role in it and if jackass politicians spin this bad enough to say that military leaders and complcit politicians were choosing to send detainees into situations where torture was likely, years of hard work on the CF image may go down the tubes.

[Gunnair]

Lemmy wrote:

Who cares what "half of Canadians" believe? "Half of Canadians" are morons. Just because people believe the Earth is flat doesn't make it so. I'm more concerned about the truth than what people believe.

Half of Canadians may be morons, as you say, but they are also voters.