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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:08 pm
 


There would be some benefits, but I think that it does not outweigh the costs and risk. I don't think this would be a good idea.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:11 pm
 


$1:
Wullu:

Conscripts were used in small numbers in both wars. It was the volunteers that won those battles and those wars. Fewer than 100 conscripts are amoung the 42,000 Canadian war dead from WWII. I do not diminish their service or their sacrifice, but to believe that they had any meaningful impact on the outcome of either world war is to give too little credit to the volunteers that did the heavy slogging.




That's for sure. The mostly French Canadian zombies who stood guard on the Welland Canal were a waste of time and rations.


$1:
Scape:
Three drunk punks is an indication that the country is going in to the toilet? Wow, glad the country I know as Canada isn't that thin skinned. My wife and I had a discussion over the three, she thought they should get community service to smarten them up but the idea of jail time to her was obscene. It flys in the face of the reason for jail time. That should be reserved for real crimes, not acts of drunken hooligans. There was a whole other thread on this that tried to say the act was something the left wing would have wanted to do. I thought that was odd considering it was the far right the unknown solider who died was fighting. I am quite sure Fascists would love to piss on the maple leaf but that was never metionded.


Scape, you raise a sensible point that the three losers who pissed on the memorial are nothing more than a few dopey drunk kids who need a good swift kick and nothing more. But I think your attempt to politicize it is a little off the mark.

The left are indeed hostile to the military. We saw that in 2003 when anti-war/anti-globalization types deliberately defaced it.

$1:
OTTAWA (CP) -- Vandals spray-painted anti-war slogans on the National War Memorial on Tuesday, just hours before Remembrance Day ceremonies were to begin.
Police said that just before 5:30 a.m., black spray paint was used to deface the base of the memorial.

Staff from the National Capital Commission erased the slogans with a pressure washer.

November 11, 2003


I've yet to see it painted with neo-Nazi slogans.

I agree with you and the others that mandatory military service is a non-starter though.


Last edited by Motorcycleboy on Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:13 pm
 


8)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:19 pm
 


Tricks Tricks:
There would be some benefits, but I think that it does not outweigh the costs and risk. I don't think this would be a good idea.

Most benefits have to underweigh the costs and risk. Othewise, the benefit wouldn't be worth striving for.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:00 am
 


Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:
I think your attempt to politicize it is a little off the mark.

The left are indeed hostile to the military. We saw that in 2003 when anti-war/anti-globalization types deliberately defaced it.


Calibrated by this example

The left are just as hostile as the right when it comes to Canada. It does not make it correct.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:56 am
 


Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:
I don't see how turning our military into a social program is beneficial to anyone.


Good point!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:23 am
 


Scape Scape:
The left are just as hostile as the right when it comes to Canada. It does not make it correct.


I don't follow you at all.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:43 am
 


If one wants to instill respect then create a national psychology program... Economic hardship and war is something that each generation should strive to avoid. It has been proven that bootcamps had no positive effect for the majority of people that have been induced into the programs, so logically manditory military service would produce a similar effect. One may also consider historically what occurs when people are forced to do or omit from doing something, such as prohibition, as well as another factor such as the aging population in Canada with a poor ratio gap of dependent people to new workers. People peeing on national monuments is not due to poor governance, but due to poor parenting.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:10 pm
 


Lord-Beaverbrook Lord-Beaverbrook:
It has been proven that bootcamps had no positive effect for the majority of people that have been induced into the programs, so logically manditory military service would produce a similar effect.


I'm not a fan of mandatory military service. But I disagree with your logic regarding it's corrective potential. While it may very well be true that "boot camps" have little or no effect on program participants, I don't think that would apply to those involved in full time military service.

Boot camps fail because they are short term. Offenders attend a camp for a few months, then return to their old neighbourhood where the same factors that brought them into conflict with the law in the first place are still present.

Putting delinquent types into forced, long term military service could have a much more positive effect. It would remove people from from their criminal environment and introduce them to a highly structured, disciplined and supervised lifestyle that couldn't help but steer many offenders in the right direction.

I'm not arguing for it. I think the army's got better things to do than be a massive correctional program. But I think forced military service could have an extremely positive effect on criminal behaviour.

$1:
LordBeaverbrook:

People peeing on national monuments is not due to poor governance, but due to poor parenting.


Well put.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:08 am
 


The Swiss require mandatory participation in their military reserve of all males between 18-55. These soldiers are also required to secure their weapons in their homes virtually negating incidents of personal property crime as by default many homes are armed with a proficient user of an automatic weapon. The Swiss also demand as part of their culture, participation of its citizens in democracy through legislative voting, referendums and even direct citizen involvement through voting for teachers and judges etc, in the various Cantons. This is largely cultural however, and countries such as Canada whose hallmark in a democracy is the abstinence of significant political or military involvement would largely find enforced military service, regardless of the nobility of the sentiment, as anathematic to our culture and values.

If we wish to instill a sense of patriotism, duty and community in our youth beyond the lip service of state-sponsored flag waving, then we need electoral reform favouring increased participation of the people rather then stifling them with state funded/organised opposition groups and apathy inducing near meaningless elections.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:30 pm
 


MustangJay MustangJay:
The recent Canada Day incident (in which 3 morons were caught urinating on the National War Memorial in Ottawa) hightlite a point I've made in the past, that there is a steady errosion of respect for this country among other things with each generation. Primarily, many expercts point to generations of Canadians that have grown up without major economic hardship or military conflict leading to the Gen X and Y'ers known as the "spoiled brat" generation. So, I propose a mandatory military service for all Canadians immidately following high school. I believe this would re-instill some desperately needed respect in young people not only for their country but for rules, elders, and themselves. The military would provide valuable experience for those serving while reinstilling Canada's sense of patriotism for generations to come. This idea has already been in place for some time in countries such as Russia, Israel, Brazil, Mexico, and Denmrk to name a few. So, is anyone else here willing to consider mandating short-erm military service for Canadians? Would this instill a lost form of much needed discipline in today's young generations? Before you write me off as crazy consider the fact that I am a 23-year-old male.



So everybody gets in no questions asked eh? Gee forced to serve! Just think of all the mis-fits you'd end up having to train. Dope smoking nut balls!!!

Gee what have you got against our military anyway?

This would work but you'd still have to weed out the one's mommy and daddy couldn't control!!!

A new job for our military bringing up the kids that parents couldn't!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:56 pm
 


That comment by you Cage gobbler pretty much says to me that you've never trained recruits. When any recruit walks in through the door you always have nutbars and dope smokers. I had walked many a recruit over to the MP shack in Wainwright for drug charges and helped a few MP's restrain recruits that had forgotten to take they medication... :lol: The military is known for representing the vast crosssection of our society. The recruiters try and avoid the nutbars, but they still fall through the cracks. It's even worse today then it was when I went through bootcamp. Todays political correctness disallows the recruit trainers from placing absolute pressure on the recruit to test their breaking point and get rid of them before they get into combat operations. For that reason we have more nutbars in the ranks than at any other time in history. Not to mention that the shortage of grunts is now forcing commanding officers to keep people around that he or she normally would have dumped long ago. They just waqtch them closer to ensure they don't freak out.

So in short, conscripts would be no better or worse than the current recruits walking through the door. The thought that dopers and nut cases would fill the ranks is pretty closed minded. If anything it would help society identify those with huge behavior problems and make it easier to treat them. You however are a pretty negative minded person that just likes to see the worse in anything that doesn't match the "Liberal" mindset. :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:00 pm
 


SJ-24 SJ-24:
That comment by you Cage gobbler pretty much says to me that you've never trained recruits. When any recruit walks in through the door you always have nutbars and dope smokers. I had walked many a recruit over to the MP shack in Wainwright for drug charges and helped a few MP's restrain recruits that had forgotten to take they medication... :lol: The military is known for representing the vast crosssection of our society. The recruiters try and avoid the nutbars, but they still fall through the cracks. It's even worse today then it was when I went through bootcamp. Todays political correctness disallows the recruit trainers from placing absolute pressure on the recruit to test their breaking point and get rid of them before they get into combat operations. For that reason we have more nutbars in the ranks than at any other time in history. Not to mention that the shortage of grunts is now forcing commanding officers to keep people around that he or she normally would have dumped long ago. They just waqtch them closer to ensure they don't freak out.

So in short, conscripts would be no better or worse than the current recruits walking through the door. The thought that dopers and nut cases would fill the ranks is pretty closed minded. If anything it would help society identify those with huge behavior problems and make it easier to treat them. You however are a pretty negative minded person that just likes to see the worse in anything that doesn't match the "Liberal" mindset. :roll:



Well if you cannot see the bad effects of this idea I'm wasting my time trying to point them out to you!

Forcing everybody to serve would fill the ranks with a lot more harder and unwilling to train recruits WOULD IT NOT?

How did you become so god damn narrow minded! I guess you swallowed the brain washing hook line ans sinker eh?

Are you still in!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:07 am
 


Just the thought of this disgusts me. I'm 19 and I have a life to live. I have nothing but respect for war veterans, people like my grandfather who grew up without very much, went to war and lost his entire family. These are the people that our country was built upon. However, my respect for these people comes from their courage...not because they joined the military to "fight for this country".
You'd think that after so many years we would learn how unnecessary these things are, and how most of the conflicts in the world right now are laughable in a way.
That being said, I think very highly of the people in the Canadian military, but I think the military as a government institution is disgraceful.
Politics and government are nothing but a theory put in place by man, and 90% of their doings have absolutely no application to the average person.
Do I care about the conflict in the middle east? Well, it's a shame what's happening over there. Death over political and religious reasons is disgusting, and it just shouldn't be happening. However, people die in conflict and thats that, but then again, those people are on such a different wavelength than north americans that there just isnt much point in trying to understand their justifications.

Joining the military is a part of many peoples futures but it is not a part of mine, and shouldn't have to be. Enforcing a political agenda is something I want absolutely no part of. It does not apply to me, my family, or anything I care about. It does not apply to my career, and it certainly does not apply to my personal beliefs.
We live in a great country. Stephen Harper did not make this a great country. No prime minister before him made this a great country. Every citizen of Canada is what makes it so great to be here. If they want to go play their war games, let them, but leave me the hell alone.

To me, mandatory service after high school (or any time) is slavery. What if a kid fresh out of school happens to get killed during his term? He/she had no chance at life, and their fate was determined by our government. No person, government, or figurehead is going to control MY life like that, and shouldnt have the ability to control anyone elses. The fact is, they don't as long as we don't let them.

People fail to realize how fragile government is... It isn't a real thing.. Like time, or like money.. People don't realize that this structure or false sense of safety can be torn away from us at any moment. Just turn the newspaper to any page on any day and you will see that we are not completely protected by our government, and that we owe it nothing. Nobody is going to take care of you.
If some prime minister wants to tell me that I have to fight for "my country", or some crap I don't believe in, I would try in all my power to take him down with me.


Anyways, sorry this is so long winded but this is just something that caught my eye and frustrated me like you wouldnt believe.
Take care


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:37 am
 


Wullu Wullu:
Not only no, but HELL NO!!. The job is tough enough without having to deal with a shitload of people that don't want to be there in the first place. I want the men and women that are beside me there because they volunteered to be there.

Besides, where do we get the personel to train them? The recruit school is short instructors now. To train tens of thousands every year for a 2 or 3 year stint would cost about half the defence budget in training and wages alone. At the end what do you have? A bunch of pissed off folks who figure they just wasted 3 years of their lives.

Stick with an all volunteer force thanks. It served us well enough in two world wars.


My sentiments exactly!


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