[Bruce_the_vii]

Choban wrote:

BeaverFever wrote:

PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:

Those British and European "peasants" BUILT this country. They had pride in their new home. What's showing up these days don't have any pride in Canada, we're just a means to an end for many of them.
The British dregs you are referring to were sent to Australia
But thanks for playing

Two things:

1) When did this country finish getting "built?" Truth is, countries and societies are always under construction, and the "flotsam and jetsam" of this world have always done the dirty work that the established classes consider themselves too good for. Thats true whether were talking about Chinesse "coolies" builind the railroads or modern migrants picking our fruits, cooking our meals, delivering our pizzas and driving our cabs.

2) Every wave of immigrants, European and otherwise gets pissed on and called "dregs" and "opportunitsts" by the wave that came first. The Brits pissed on the Irish, then the Brits and Irish together pissed on the groups that came later and on it went for the Germans, Ukranians, Italians, Greeks, Poles, Jews etc when they got here. Every group tries to scratch out some existence for itself upon arrival, gets derided for it, then after they "make it" as a group they turn around and start deriding those behind them that are trying to do the same thing. Unfortuntately, its human nature to be angry, petty, self-entitled, self-righteous xenophobic hypocrites.

I just decided to weigh in on this thread, and I must say well said Beaver.

Well maybe not. It used to thought that working on the line at an auto company was doing a job that nobody wanted. Now such jobs are considered like a lottery win. Regular joes are working flipping buggers for minimum wage. These are different times.

[BeaverFever]

I dont know that those jobs were ever ones that "nobody wanted". I think since the 80s they became seen as less than ideal but there remained plenty of factory towns where getting a job at the plant was seen as a good option for most blue collar families. Obviously, every parent hopes that their kid will grow up to be a doctor or a lawyer or at least not have to work as hard as the parents did, and many of those parents were factory workers themselves. But I dont think society as a whole turned its back on the blue collar workforce til about 20 years ago when Thatcherism and Reaganomics became popular, with all the anti-union rhetoric they entail.

[Bruce_the_vii]

Lots of indigenous working at McLabour jobs. Statistics Canada reports that 23% of Canadians work at jobs that pay $12 an hour or less, which you could call McJobs. So that's 1 in 4. It's not that indegenous don't want to work for low wages rather part of the equation is some of these jobs you could simply do without. Retail, for example, is a huge employer and vastly over invested in the modern economy and you could simply downsize it with out much of a loss. So you could improve the country by contouring the labour market. Immigrants built Canada, it's true, but they also contributed to our problems - such as McLabour. These slogans "immigrants built Canada" and "immigrants take jobs the indegenous don't want" need to be replaced with a little analysis. So lets get rid of some of these jobs "indigenous don't want". They are low wage and a drain on society in the modern Canadian nanny state.

[BCMc]

bootlegga wrote:

BCMc

There are so many errors in those three train wrecks called posts that I don't know where to start, but I'll start by dispelling some of the 'beliefs' you have.

If you don't think people who can't speak English aren't smart, there's little hope for you. Science, believe it or not, is not and English-only playground. Look at the field of chemistry for example. Many of the best and brightest are German, not American or Canadian. Feel free to stop using pastuerized milk or paper anytime you want to not use something invented by a non-English speaking scientist (and those are but two examples from a list thousands long).

I'll agree that many immigrants with poor English might not make good teachers, but that doesn't mean that they aren't capable. Of course that means little anyways, as many professors are the greatest teachers anyways. Many of them focus most of their efforts on their research (at least at big universities), with classes being a requirement to doing said research. Hell, most of the professors I had in university spoke English as their native language and they were useless as teachers. Again, this was because their main focus was to conduct research, not teach. Don't blame the professor, blame the university that insists professors have to publish several major articles each year (each backed up by a fair amount of research).

Foreign students also do not benefit from "lesser criteria". They have to meet the exact same standards as you and I to get into grad school. It's not their fault that many of them do better on the GRE/GMAT/LSAT than people living here.

Canadian students can (and do) go to universities in countries where English is not the native language (France, Germany, & Japan come to mind for starters). Command of the language there is not necessary, for two reasons. One is that many schools have programs for English speakers, and the other is that the focus is on knowledge, not how well they know the native language.

And please spare me the rhetoric about people dying to build this country. Both of my parents lost siblings while they were growing up, and I’m well aware of the sacrifices PAST generations have made. My criticism is not of them, but of the current generation (or two). It is they who expect to graduate high school or college and have a six figure job drop into their laps, without any of the struggle or sacrifice that is often necessary to earn such a salary.

If you can’t read between the lines, that’s not my problem, it’s yours. Save your sanctimonious lectures (and hollow threats) for someone else. Either debate the issue or take your ball and go home.

First off, perhaps I allow others to read my posts and discern, because you seem to be reading between my lines, that which does not exist. So I want clear presentation from you if you believe I am not reading between your lines. What does that have to do with anything. Whether you agree or not is your choice, but it does not invalidate my position. In addition you have some huge errors in your presumptions about my words, whereas I am only discussing International student situation as it stands today and the effects of mass immigration. I am not discussing all peoples in the world or their intelligence levels for goodness sake or that there are not intelligent people with English as a second language. I believe all countries can have great people so that is not this discussion. However, if I have issues trying to get around a community to do normal everday business or am dealing with business on the telephone, yes, I have every right to get preturbed when my money and time are lost or issues take months to sort out over language barriers in my own country with my own telephone bill, or any situatoin that private monopolies swooped in on our already built resources, so don't get me started on that topic.

1. So again, Where did I say that people who don't speak English cannot be intelligent? No where. I speak of people who do not have a command of the language and then proceed to try to teach others academically challenging subjects. I question intelligence levels of University students who have poor English, because how can they grasp literature, biology and and other subjects if they only have half understanding at times.

The mass influx is what I am discussing in addition to fact that many of these kids are being *milled* through these programs.

Not all students are in that category and those are usually the students who had English taught in their homeland while growing up. I personally find fault with someone with poor english skills teaching our children who cannot communicate and the child gets the poor grade. You obviously don't see the relativity, but many others do. Your diatribe about poor teachers or professors has nothing to do with my point and is another debate.

2. If students head to another country to study, majority of developed countries teach English as their second language, so again your point is lost. Chinese, Japanese, Punjabi is NOT taught in our schools, so again, moot points. I have a good feeling that attending schools in foreign countries is not about being immersed in Italian, Russian, Japanese to study biology, literature, chemistry, and expect to get A grades when one has not been exposed to that language.

Most Danish, Dutch, Germans, Japanese, and many European countries have English as their second language. It is the language of the world for business, so not sure why you argue those points. It does not make one better or lord it over others, but it is a language that has been chosen for world communication, otherwise we would be learning Chinese seeing as they have majority population.

4. Where are my hollow threats that seem to intimidate you? Not sure. Perhaps I asked if you will get upset at your children getting shoved aside for the next wave of mass immigration? Find specifics then I can respond.

5. You say both your parents lost siblings? in this country, while working in a job or profession or service for this country? Loss of our loved ones in any circumstance matters, but I am speaking of specifics. Death is a fact of life, but death due to circumstances that are about building this country are valid in my statement.

6. You are talking about this generation? Well this topic affects my generation and the jabs against my generation are all around us, including our way and quality of life and will affect my children too. We are told to sit back and have our traditions and ways not only legally thrown out of the public sphere, but get prejudice on top of that notion. So what people do to my generation or the next generation affects us all. (ie referring to Christmas issues, pageants and prayers in schools and so on.

You did not answer if this is your homeland country, nor if it was your parents homeland country. You have the right to speak on matters you know. If you have not been affected by mass immigration or any issues, that is nice. But don't speak for other people. You are trying to usurp my voice that is the voice of many over this issue. I feel as if people walked into my home and said, I will have some of this and that and you shut up and don't say anything. (I am a very giving person to the poor and causes, so that is not what I refer to here).


I am in a course right now that is interestingly very critical of the white people screwing up art history too, and the denigration going on, again, of my generation, while I sit in a sea of International students = is not good. I will make my own points in my paper or on discussion boards with diplomacy and already have in that regard.


I have a right not only to my opinion, but my real life experiences and the stories of my grandparents and their parents and theirs. This is my truth, I do not speak for everyone and I clarified that, but I do speak for many generational Canadian families, which possible covers millions of other similar opinions.


We Canadians are affected and we are speaking up for ourselves. Not all people will see things the way I do, because they are not affected in small town Canada many times, because interestingly enough, the last few waves of immigrants don't seem to like to head to the outer, colder, harsher areas of the country. Statistics will prove me right on that point btw.

You have a right to your opinion, but it appears I do not see facts debating my premise nor facts how all generational Canadians are not affected by mass immigration. Again, I will repeat myself, I am for all peoples to have a quality of life, and enjoy different cultural ideals, but not at the expense that my own ideals or traditions or way of life is so affected, there have been reprecussions or challenges that should not exist. Reread my posts to find out what I said about those issues.

Bootlegga, My question to you and is directly related to this debate - can you say with an unqualified certainty that Canadians who have been here for many generations are not affected or not seeing some serious issues over the mass immigrations of peoples? That is a major part of the topic of multiculturalism connected to the idea of future mass immigration.

Thanks for listening.

Not spell checking, so sorry if there are errors.

[EyeBrock]

Bmc, I never read past the first few lines.
Long posts are destined never to be read. It should be on the forum FAQ's.

[Bruce_the_vii]

Ten pages of response. Immigration remains a high interest issue. Here I asked about cultural issues and there was some exasperation with multiculturalism and some response to that that immigration has always worked. I don't see any simple points that are safe to talk about and could be acted on, though. Thanks for the response, sometimes my threads get zero entries.

[BCMc]

EyeBrock wrote:

Bmc, I never read past the first few lines.
Long posts are destined never to be read. It should be on the forum FAQ's.

Your privilege and choice to be sure. Point taken and duly noted.

I am not on here for long, and administrators could transfer any of my posts to another area of this forum if that is more in line with protocol. I am trying to get words inbetween my course work, so perhaps I overstep my bounds fitting too much with each visit. Sorry about that.

I also realize that some people write short notes, some say nothing, some have fun, some joke around or are serious. I do that too.

In this topic, a lot of serious things came into play and I am being told my opinions or my life experience is wrong? I always have a chuckle at those notions, but I respond accordingly.

Sometimes people have to realize that an opinion is just that, but opinion based on real life experience or facts qualifies as experiential opinion. I think a discussion on opinions, facts or opinionated might be an interesting topic. but not all have the same life experience, so one can have their own "truths" and that another may never experience.

All the same, everyones opinions are all valid (does not mean they are facts), but debating them can be challenging or make us think in new ways, by either accepting or rejecting some notions or perhaps even meeting half way.

Thanks for the input. I agree, sometimes I don't want to read long winded stuff! But then again, I don't find any posts on this board long. (Personal view).

Boring posts, well that is another story. So if I put people to sleep, sorry about that, just skip over and thanks for letting me have a say~~~~~~

[BCMc]

Bruce_the_vii wrote:

Ten pages of response. Immigration remains a high interest issue. Here I asked about cultural issues and there was some exasperation with multiculturalism and some response to that that immigration has always worked. I don't see any simple points that are safe to talk about and could be acted on, though. Thanks for the response, sometimes my threads get zero entries.

Well, Bruce, you are talking about a highly complex issue that has now compounded with time.

How can one find simple answers or agreement on millions of peoples lives. The mass immigration has caused the pushing of bounds of peoples voices to want their homeland experience repeated in Canada.

That has also caused shifts in demographics, communities, laws and lives affected both with immigrants and with Canadians.

It is like asking for a simple solution to the perfect marriage, btw.

You are not going to get pat or cut and dried answers is all I am saying.

Sorry, but that is the truth, it went too far, too fast and now trying to put it into neat little boxes to solve it all is impossible.

But not impossible, if we just shut the doors temporarily to sort out the mess we already have, ~~~~ We did that after World War 2 and that became the most prosperous growth and quality of life in Canadian history. Nothing wrong with saying slow down, sort it out so that all people become settled.

Then open doors with a more gradual approach.

Balance is what it is about. Finding that balance is the key when pendulums swing too far in history.

Thanks for bringing up the topic, it just hit home for me different this year and perhaps that is why I have a lot to say about the topic. This topic cannot be addressed in isolation to the other issues that are reprecussions of mass immigration.

Multiculturism is the word you used, and that means we accept all cultures ideals or ways or we are seen as prejudice. We must be very cautious of pendulum swings is what I am saying.

I appreciate all the posters comments, even if I disagree, we can discuss it and that is what is good.

Whether we solve it with such a diverse responses - another story, but that in a way is your answer Bruce. It is not cut and dried down to a few simple points, then one addresses the solution. It is complex and will take time to sort it out, but not with those in office right now. They only see power and dollar signs with global efforts. I see a raping of our resources and lands for everyone elses benefit, while we have homeless people on the streets ~which was never heard of when I was young.

Talk later.

[Bruce_the_vii]

Hi BCMc:

I counted some 10 topics in your post.

You bring up the issue of the problems, cost and inconvenience of a large immigration community and especially the language problem. It’s interesting but I think you’d have to have some pretty clear arguments and good language to make this popular as people will say we need immigrants and have to tolerate the problems.

You are at University and we know the universities are full of young immigrants, especially Chinese. In an immigration country these people have the same priority as you for going to university and the indigenous will have to compete with them. The Chinese are totally education oriented so it will be a challenge.

You talk about International Students but I believe these people pay the full $17,000 cost of a year a school. They don’t take berths from the indigenous that are subsidized. The universities actually do it for the money.

You also talk about our traditions and ways as being pushed out of the public sphere by multiculturalism. I wanted to know about what people think about such issues. Just how much of a problem is it.

Myself, I tend to think if the numbers were closer to what can be absorbed into good jobs all the issues would be muted.

[Bruce_the_vii]

Hi again BCMc:

Oh it's a complex issue but I'm a "job activist" and can make some pretty simple, unifying points. Canada is about good jobs. It's what the immigrants come here for. They are concerned about the rent, pensions and middleclass opportunity for their children. As a "job activist" I don't get any disagreement of this from present immigrants, none. Good jobs is pie in the sky but you can improve on the present economy considerably and this is what my activism is about. The economy should grow somewhat in the next twenty years and to capture the good job aspect of it you have to get immigration right.

On the cultural side I see a unify idea as well. It's about the "perfect marriage" as you put it. The culture is really about how your adult personality is working, the loveable you. So almost every adult is struggling with this and it's the bedrock of the culture and society. How's that.

[BCMc]

Bruce_the_vii wrote:

Hi again BCMc:

Oh it's a complex issue but I'm a "job activist" and can make some pretty simple, unifying points. Canada is about good jobs. It's what the immigrants come here for. They are concerned about the rent, pensions and middleclass opportunity for their children. As a "job activist" I don't get any disagreement of this from present immigrants, none. Good jobs is pie in the sky but you can improve on the present economy considerably and this is what my activism is about. The economy should grow somewhat in the next twenty years and to capture the good job aspect of it you have to get immigration right.

On the cultural side I see a unify idea as well. It's about the "perfect marriage" as you put it. The culture is really about how your adult personality is working, the loveable you. So almost every adult is struggling with this and it's the bedrock of the culture and society. How's that.

I had a post typed out and it poofed. My short version. Point made that majority of students getting an education is about money and it does cause less places for our children.

3 (half of the world) billion people you want to pool from for a percentile on SAT's and we have only so many spots? Doesn't add up. I will disagree on that point. Money is not everything, Universities are for money grabs now and that is the nouveau way.

Our traditions and ways have been denigrated in public schools, ie prayers (aetheists were not the ones arguing that - it was other cultural Gods arguing that). Why the Lords prayer (patriarchal God) that talks about being good to one another offends people is beyond me.

Christmas traditions being fought for in our schools? because we let everyone else have traditions and not ours? That is a whole topic unto itself because then we get into fact that muslims, hindus and so forth get to bring their Gods and prayers to schools, but Christians can't? See what I mean. We revere these men stopping and praying to Allah during the day no matter what even to interupt meetings and so forth. But we don't allow Christians to do the same? Hmmmm.

As for your mandate about getting jobs? I suggest that you look at history of East Kootenays in British Columbia or other jobs, jobs losses.

Things will only work when people are balanced about what they have, how they can work it, and what they take and what they give away.

If we try to force false creation of jobs there are huge reprecussions. Open that door so that millions of people can enjoy the country and deal with overcrowding in cities?

Money is not everything and there might not be a job (real work) shortage if people balance the population around the WHOLE country.

As for job activist role, I am hoping what you are saying is that you want to assess the economy right now with glut or lack of glut of available jobs and that you are looking at the viability of less competition to vy for those jobs, and work with what we have for a while.

Thanks for listening.

[Bruce_the_vii]

As a job activist that is what I'm doing. I've become fairly well known for it as economist don't actually do it. As I posted the Liberal Election Platform Committee is currently reviewing my data and suggestions.

[bootlegga]

BCMc wrote:

Bootlegga, My question to you and is directly related to this debate - can you say with an unqualified certainty that Canadians who have been here for many generations are not affected or not seeing some serious issues over the mass immigrations of peoples? That is a major part of the topic of multiculturalism connected to the idea of future mass immigration.

Thanks for listening.

Not spell checking, so sorry if there are errors.

Yes I can say with "unqualified certainty that Canadians who have been here for many generations are not affected or not seeing some serious issues over the mass immigrations of peoples".

Immigration has been a fact of life since Canada was discovered and always will be. Like someone else posted, it seems like every previous generation of immigrants looks down its nose at the current (the English disliking the Irish, both disliking the Germans and Ukrainians, all of them complaining about the Chinese and Japanese, etc). The largest migration in Canadian history took part BEFORE the WW1, and most of those immigrants were second class citizens for over a generation. Today, many of their descendants are considered pillars of society.

Despite all this, immigration doesn't take a single thing away from those who are already here. Instead, they fill jobs most Canadians won't do (like working in convenience stores, driving taxis and big trucks, etc). Many of them work two of those crappy jobs to create a better life for themselves.

Instead, these immigrants bring with them a ethic of hard work and a desire to get ahead. When they get here, they arrive with a couple of suitcases of clothes and knick knacks. That means they have to buy everything else, from houses to cars to food. Immigration actually grows our economy and is a big positive for our country.

If that means that they bring new customs, culinary ideas, and holiday traditions, I'm fine with that. Our country has so much more variety than it did even just 20 years and is richer for that. If you want a bland, homogeneous society, that Canada disappeared almost 100 years ago. The Two Solitudes are history, and frankly, I think Canada is better off for it.

[Bruce_the_vii]

Immigration has been an aspect of the New World English speaking countries for hundreds of years. However most other countries don't have major immigration programs, can't support them. People in these few Western countries like bootlegga just think immigration is a birth right and normal. In fact to have a surplus of good jobs means you are head and shoulders above the world competition. It's nationalism. After WWII the only countries that weren't bombed out were the USA, Canada and Australia and things were good for them. Now there's a Global Economy. To import people to work at menial jobs is backwards because what Canada is about is standards, such as jobs with a pension plan - people's actual interest.

[Bruce_the_vii]

You know I estimate that the real unemployment in Canada is currently about 18%. Compared to Alberta at it's peak that is what it is. In addition some 23% of the labour force work for $12 an hour or less. What's that add up to. Some 43%. The elephant in the room is the job. Just look around. Check out what your friends and family are about.