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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:26 am
 


andyt andyt:
I am?

Yes you did. You said they should hire good people and listen to them. So what do you do with the people who did the job before? Or are you saying we should hire another level of government employees?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:29 am
 


You need to take a course in logic. Who says the people already there aren't good? But often the top people leave because they don't see things eye to eye with the new govt. That's when it's time to hire people who have the expertise rather than political buddies.

But fine, you got me. I should have said they need to keep the good people already in the dept, fire those that aren't a good fit and hire good people in their place. Happy now?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:02 am
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
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I was under the impression that engineers were too busy building, and scientists making discoveries, to sit in a drafty chamber screaming at each other.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:06 am
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
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Here here!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:12 am
 


andyt andyt:
I don't agree with Degrasse Tyson here particularly. Scientists and engineers can be as stupid in politics and outside their area of expertise as anybody. Law and business actually seem like closer to what politics is about than science. What's needed are renaissance men - people with broad rather than deep experience who know enough when to consult the experts on a given problem, and make sure they're not hiring x spurts.

The other thing that none of this addresses is character. We need people who aren't just self serving and aggrandizing. Not many of those seem to be drawn to politics, and why should they with the electorate being as stupid as it is.


Well I remember sitting with a good buddy of mine drinkming a ferw cold ones and remarking on how many super-intelligent people we knew--guys pinging past the geniius mark. We concluded that we wouldn't trust any of them to run a peanut stand. Looking back now many of them suffered "failure to launch." One is dead from a drug overdose. Another is a successful entrepreneur and university professor.

That said, the point is not that we need a Lisa Simpson intelligentsia running the show, the point is that we are seeing too many professional politicians who have never done anything else. We're not just missing scientists and engineers, we're missing plumbers, we're missing teachers. We're missing the very idea that you should serve in politics and then go back to your life.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:13 am
 


I don't know, a scientist who can't spell properly doesn't inspire the most confidence in me that he would be a good choice for a politician.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:17 am
 


andyt andyt:
I don't know, a scientist who can't spell properly doesn't inspire the most confidence in me that he would be a good choice for a politician.

I will gladly take the misspelling scientist over a mailroom clerk or a substitute drama teacher with a trust fund. :P


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:20 am
 


andyt andyt:
The experts are the bureaucrats within the department. A good minister will hire good people and listen to them. In fact what I've heard, often the minister actually has very little power, the bureaucrats run the show. But it makes sense. The politician is the connection to the voters, supposed to do what the voters want, then let the bureaucrats figure out how.



I don't think this is the case. You've been watching too much Yes Minister.

In the Candian federal civil service, they do tend to clean shop at the higher ranks with a change of government--the Deputy Ministers and maybe the rank below them, but the rest stay. We have the British tradition of the non-partisan civil service. In the US, they scour down the first five or so levels of management on a change of government.

Take the case of the so-called trade shortages. Rather than use employment economists and statisticians (that presumably work--or at least used to work--for the civil service) they used Kijiji.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:23 am
 


andyt andyt:
I don't know, a scientist who can't spell properly doesn't inspire the most confidence in me that he would be a good choice for a politician.


I'm an excellent speller. Just a lousy typer. And I would be a lousy choice as a politician. I exist in the philososphere, for the most part. I'm easily distracted by shiny baubles and prefer solving differential equations to difficult issues. :lol:


Last edited by Zipperfish on Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:24 am
 


FieryVulpine FieryVulpine:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
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I was under the impression that engineers were too busy building, and scientists making discoveries, to sit in a drafty chamber screaming at each other.


I think that's Dr. Tyson's point. If government is to be an instrument of the people for the benefit of all, it should broadly reflect the people and not just a small portion of it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:31 am
 


Does anyone else think that PM Harper is a secret American agent bent on making Canada a vassal state of the Vast Right-Wing Amerikkka Conspiracy and enslaving the True North Strong and Free?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:33 am
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
andyt andyt:
The experts are the bureaucrats within the department. A good minister will hire good people and listen to them. In fact what I've heard, often the minister actually has very little power, the bureaucrats run the show. But it makes sense. The politician is the connection to the voters, supposed to do what the voters want, then let the bureaucrats figure out how.



I don't think this is the case. You've been watching too much Yes Minister.

In the Candian federal civil service, they do tend to clean shop at the higher ranks with a change of government--the Deputy Ministers and maybe the rank below them, but the rest stay. We have the British tradition of the non-partisan civil service. In the US, they scour down the first five or so levels of management on a change of government.

Take the case of the so-called trade shortages. Rather than use employment economists and statisticians (that presumably work--or at least used to work--for the civil service) they used Kijiji.


Nope. Canadian ministers both federally and provincially have complained that they actually have to struggle agianst an entrenched bureaucracy to get their views put into action.

Your second paragraph does't illustrate the first. It just shows what happens when a stupid gov (or a clever one out to fool the public) doesn't use the resources it has on hand.

We're not in disagreement here. What I'm saying is that a good minister makes sure he has the expertise in his department to give him the info he doesn't have and at least considers it. Often tho the decision isn't one of clear facts on one side, but choosing between opposing "facts". Especially in economics. Most govt decisions aren't about science.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:34 am
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:

That said, the point is not that we need a Lisa Simpson intelligentsia running the show, the point is that we are seeing too many professional politicians who have never done anything else. We're not just missing scientists and engineers, we're missing plumbers, we're missing teachers. We're missing the very idea that you should serve in politics and then go back to your life.


Yep. Christie Clark, Adrian Dix, Stephen Harper, Justin Trudeau. Actually Trudeau has the most real world experience, including teacher.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:35 am
 


DanSC DanSC:
Does anyone else think that PM Harper is a secret American agent bent on making Canada a vassal state of the Vast Right-Wing Amerikkka Conspiracy and enslaving the True North Strong and Free?


Nope.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:38 am
 


DanSC DanSC:
Does anyone else think that PM Harper is a secret American agent bent on making Canada a vassal state of the Vast Right-Wing Amerikkka Conspiracy and enslaving the True North Strong and Free?


No. Both Harper and the US presidents are secret agents bent on making the world a vassal state for the Bilderberg group. Or the Illuminati, I forget which. But substitute .1% for those groups and there might actually be something to it. Look at Obama and the promise he came in with. I think once he was elected, they took him to the star chamber and showed him who was really in charge. He sure seemed to veer right as soon as he came in.

Excuse me, there's somebody at my front door....


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