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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:09 am
 


JaredMilne wrote:
If Alberta became independent, we would still have to get the rest of Canada's consent to build a pipeline across B.C. or anywhere else to get our resources to tidewater.


If Alberta joins the USA then the rest of Canada will need our (US & Alberta) permission to visit BC. 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:27 am
 


Posting this here, just for laughs and the opportunity to make another shitty comment about our utterly ridiculous country:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/venezu ... -1.4990879

Quote:
Ship-monitoring website TankerTrackers.com estimates there are about a dozen oil tankers idling either off the Venezuelan coast or elsewhere in the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico, about half of which are loaded up with Venezuelan crude that suddenly has no place to go.

Under normal circumstances, the vast majority of Venezuelan crude is destined for refineries on the U.S. Gulf Coast. With those customers effectively blocked off, that oil is having a tough time finding alternative customers.


Why not send them to the refineries in Vancouver, New Brunswick, or Quebec? That way our fellow countrymen can joyously celebrate not having to take the same amount of oil from Mordor, err, evil Alberta. :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:50 am
 


China will snap it up soon as the price drops enough to make the shipping cost sensible.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:00 pm
 


BartSimpson wrote:
JaredMilne wrote:
If Alberta became independent, we would still have to get the rest of Canada's consent to build a pipeline across B.C. or anywhere else to get our resources to tidewater.


If Alberta joins the USA then the rest of Canada will need our (US & Alberta) permission to visit BC. 8)


Actually it wouldn't. Travel across Alberta would remain open if only for the simple reason that Alberta would lose tourist revenue if the borders were closed, and it would be too easy for the rest of Canada to retaliate against Alberta. Also travel through the US to BC is already common. I've taken the route through Montana, Idaho, and Washington numerous times when visiting BC.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:14 pm
 


DrCaleb wrote:
I don't disagree with all you write, but . . .

Douwe wrote:
First of all Alberta is not used as an ATM. Money that goes to the federal government can be used any way that government chooses. No province has a special claim to it.


Really? You've lived here for 40 years, but you didn't notice how Alberta is never a 'have not' province when it comes to federal tax redistribution? And you've never noticed how one province with huge natural resources, abundant clean energy, a population multiple times that of Alberta; somehow always seems to be a 'have not' Province with respect to those same federal tax funds?

Douwe wrote:
Alberta needs to take a good look at the way the world is going and plan for a future in which its most important resource may decline in importance.


This is an example of what we do for our own good, not what the Feds do for us.


It is a misconception that there is some sort of kitty that each province kicks into and then receives back whatever the federal government decides. Equalization payments do not belong to each province. They are part of a federal program intended to help out the poorer parts of Canada. Theoretically the program could be ended any time, but it is too much of a vote buyer. If you want to take a look check out the latest Alberta budget and then compare it to other provinces. You will find that all provinces have a component entitled Transfers from the Government of Canada. Last year Alberta received almost as much in that Category as BC despite having a million fewer people.

I assume you were talking about Quebec in the rest of your post. There are several reasons why Quebec lags behind the rest of Canada economically. One is language and the language laws which discourage many investors. Another is fear of separation. Political instability is never good for the economy. And the last is Quebec's tax rate which is much higher than most other provinces.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:41 pm
 


Quote:
Why not send them to the refineries in Vancouver, New Brunswick, or Quebec? That way our fellow countrymen can joyously celebrate not having to take the same amount of oil from Mordor, err, evil Alberta

Forget Vancouver, I do't think they let oil tankers through the Panama Canal. Had a job one summer steam cleaning ships that did need to go through. Nasty, disgusting job.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:08 pm
 


Douwe wrote:
DrCaleb wrote:
I don't disagree with all you write, but . . .

Douwe wrote:
First of all Alberta is not used as an ATM. Money that goes to the federal government can be used any way that government chooses. No province has a special claim to it.


Really? You've lived here for 40 years, but you didn't notice how Alberta is never a 'have not' province when it comes to federal tax redistribution? And you've never noticed how one province with huge natural resources, abundant clean energy, a population multiple times that of Alberta; somehow always seems to be a 'have not' Province with respect to those same federal tax funds?

Douwe wrote:
Alberta needs to take a good look at the way the world is going and plan for a future in which its most important resource may decline in importance.


This is an example of what we do for our own good, not what the Feds do for us.


It is a misconception that there is some sort of kitty that each province kicks into and then receives back whatever the federal government decides. Equalization payments do not belong to each province. They are part of a federal program intended to help out the poorer parts of Canada. Theoretically the program could be ended any time, but it is too much of a vote buyer. If you want to take a look check out the latest Alberta budget and then compare it to other provinces. You will find that all provinces have a component entitled Transfers from the Government of Canada. Last year Alberta received almost as much in that Category as BC despite having a million fewer people.

I assume you were talking about Quebec in the rest of your post. There are several reasons why Quebec lags behind the rest of Canada economically. One is language and the language laws which discourage many investors. Another is fear of separation. Political instability is never good for the economy. And the last is Quebec's tax rate which is much higher than most other provinces.

And another is Quebec deliberately does not develop its own resources for fear of losing its have not status. The rest of your reasons are tripe. Pure and simple.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:26 am
 


Douwe wrote:
DrCaleb wrote:
I don't disagree with all you write, but . . .

Douwe wrote:
First of all Alberta is not used as an ATM. Money that goes to the federal government can be used any way that government chooses. No province has a special claim to it.


Really? You've lived here for 40 years, but you didn't notice how Alberta is never a 'have not' province when it comes to federal tax redistribution? And you've never noticed how one province with huge natural resources, abundant clean energy, a population multiple times that of Alberta; somehow always seems to be a 'have not' Province with respect to those same federal tax funds?

Douwe wrote:
Alberta needs to take a good look at the way the world is going and plan for a future in which its most important resource may decline in importance.


This is an example of what we do for our own good, not what the Feds do for us.


It is a misconception that there is some sort of kitty that each province kicks into and then receives back whatever the federal government decides. Equalization payments do not belong to each province. They are part of a federal program intended to help out the poorer parts of Canada. Theoretically the program could be ended any time, but it is too much of a vote buyer. If you want to take a look check out the latest Alberta budget and then compare it to other provinces. You will find that all provinces have a component entitled Transfers from the Government of Canada. Last year Alberta received almost as much in that Category as BC despite having a million fewer people.


The 'kitty' as you call it, is called 'General Revenue' and is funded by the federal taxes everyone pays. Equalization comes out of there, based on a very complex formula. One that determines 'have' and 'have not' provinces. In those calculations, potential resource revenue is counted against Alberta, and ignored for Quebec. That makes Alberta 'have', and Quebec 'have not'.

https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite ... ns/200820E

Douwe wrote:
I assume you were talking about Quebec in the rest of your post. There are several reasons why Quebec lags behind the rest of Canada economically. One is language and the language laws which discourage many investors. Another is fear of separation. Political instability is never good for the economy. And the last is Quebec's tax rate which is much higher than most other provinces.


Good guess! Language has nothing to do with it. The only reason Quebec lags the ROC, is because that's how they want it. If they developed their resources, if they priced their hydroelectricity at market value; they would have the income to balance their budget. And they would also not qualify for Equalization.

How can Alberta balance the books without a provincial sales tax, where Quebec can't? "Political will" is how.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:37 am
 


Quote:
potential resource revenue is counted against Alberta, and ignored for Quebec. That makes Alberta 'have', and Quebec 'have not'.

I think this is what pisses me off the most. We get punished for developing our resources and driving the national economy. Meanwhile Quebec gets to circumvent the system and make off with 24 billion dollars this year alone. Quebec gets to enact social programs that other parts of the nation can't afford, primarily because Quebec fucking robs every "have province" for billions.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:52 am
 


llama66 wrote:
Quote:
potential resource revenue is counted against Alberta, and ignored for Quebec. That makes Alberta 'have', and Quebec 'have not'.

I think this is what pisses me off the most. We get punished for developing our resources and driving the national economy. Meanwhile Quebec gets to circumvent the system and make off with 24 billion dollars this year alone. Quebec gets to enact social programs that other parts of the nation can't afford, primarily because Quebec fucking robs every "have province" for billions.


They also run significant defecits, and no one really squawks about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_ ... overnments

I like that table. Alberta - 2007/2008 negative 13 percent. Quebec, 40 percent. ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:54 am
 


herbie wrote:
Quote:
Why not send them to the refineries in Vancouver, New Brunswick, or Quebec? That way our fellow countrymen can joyously celebrate not having to take the same amount of oil from Mordor, err, evil Alberta

Forget Vancouver, I do't think they let oil tankers through the Panama Canal. Had a job one summer steam cleaning ships that did need to go through. Nasty, disgusting job.

From a cursory look at Google, the Panama Canal allows oil tankers to pass through it. The only other option are the Straits of Megellan, which are a riskier proposition.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:59 am
 


FieryVulpine wrote:
herbie wrote:
Quote:
Why not send them to the refineries in Vancouver, New Brunswick, or Quebec? That way our fellow countrymen can joyously celebrate not having to take the same amount of oil from Mordor, err, evil Alberta

Forget Vancouver, I do't think they let oil tankers through the Panama Canal. Had a job one summer steam cleaning ships that did need to go through. Nasty, disgusting job.

From a cursory look at Google, the Panama Canal allows oil tankers to pass through it. The only other option are the Straits of Megellan, which are a riskier proposition.

Drake's passage is fine. Nothing bad ever happens there. It's perfectly safe.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:30 pm
 


DrCaleb wrote:
The 'kitty' as you call it, is called 'General Revenue' and is funded by the federal taxes everyone pays. Equalization comes out of there, based on a very complex formula.

Good guess! Language has nothing to do with it. The only reason Quebec lags the ROC, is because that's how they want it. If they developed their resources, if they priced their hydroelectricity at market value; they would have the income to balance their budget. And they would also not qualify for Equalization.



I believe your comment on equalization payments pretty much echoes what I said; that federal revenue does not belong to the provinces.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4314547/equa ... ttawa-oil/

My comments on Quebec were not guesses. They are exact reasons why many businesses will not invest in Quebec.

As for balancing the budget there are several acts Alberta could take. One is a sales tax; another is simply raising income tax; and a third is bringing in some other sort of tax. Of course, it could also adopt the Ralph Klein solution and cut services. Mind you this would probably make the current recession much worse.

In any case we are taking this thread off topic. Since the thread is about separation I contend that Alberta would not benefit from separation; not unless there was a huge spike in oil prices and even then there would still be the problem of shipping oil through foreign and very likely hostile territory.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:32 pm
 


FieryVulpine wrote:
Forget Vancouver, I do't think they let oil tankers through the Panama Canal. Had a job one summer steam cleaning ships that did need to go through. Nasty, disgusting job.

From a cursory look at Google, the Panama Canal allows oil tankers to pass through it. The only other option are the Straits of Megellan, which are a riskier proposition.[/quote]

Ah, so we have a solution. Forget pipelines; build a canal through BC.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:33 am
 


Quote:
My comments on Quebec were not guesses. They are exact reasons why many businesses will not invest in Quebec.

Except you're wrong.
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/foreign-inv ... -1.3615476
https://ca.reuters.com/article/business ... 52ME-OCABS
https://montrealgazette.com/business/lo ... 50-in-2017
http://www.montrealinternational.com/en ... al-sector/

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