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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:59 pm
 


The wave of attacks that have occurred this summer have made the debate over how to respond to terrorism more heated than ever, with calls for Canada and its allies to step up the fight against ISIS and other organizations. Other voices decry what they see as the tarring of all Muslims and people of Arab and Middle Eastern background as potential terrorists, arguing that it amounts to racism and judging people guilty until proven innocent.

Many of the people calling for Canada to step up the fight against terror organizations are often conservatives. However, I haven’t seen nearly as much commentary from progressives on how to actually respond to the ghoulish actions of ISIS, or related groups like Boko Haram in Nigeria. It’s one thing for Canada and its allies to take in and support refugees who have lost everything, but how should Canada and its allies actually counter what the terrorist organizations are doing in the Middle East and Africa? Their actions and beliefs are an active threat to everything from feminism to the rights of gay, transgender and queer people, and they would brutally repress any demonstration or protest that people made in support of minority rights.

If Canada and its allies don’t fight back, then what is the alternative?

On the other hand, many of the people expressing concerns about the backlash stepping up the fight against terrorist organizations has provoked against Muslims already living in Canada are often progressives. However, I haven’t seen nearly as much commentary from conservatives on how to address incidents such as the vandalism of mosques in places like Cold Lake, Peterborough or Quebec City. We should fight the terrorist organizations, but how do we do that and also counter the mentality that leads to mosque vandalism, or increased hate crimes against Canadian Muslims? How do we avoid, or at least reduce the risk, of entrapping innocent citizens like Maher Arar and potentially ruining their lives in the process? The Charter of Rights guarantees freedom of religion, including the right to practice Islam. The Charter also lays out other legal protections that apply to everyone, including Canadians of Middle Eastern descent.

If Canada and its allies don’t respect the rights and freedoms of all their citizens, regardless of their ethnicity or religion, then what does that say about us?

Canadians have always been ready to fight when we need to. We need to do it again, this time against the evils of ISIS and other terrorist organizations. However, in the World Wars we violated the rights of Canadians of Ukrainian, Japanese, and other origins. Today, we need to consider how our battle impacts the rights of our fellow Canadians of Middle Eastern descent and/or of the Muslim faith. Those rights and freedoms are part of what is supposed to define Canada, and what we’re supposed to stand for. Vandalism, hate crimes and racial profiling undermine those things, undermine who we are as Canadians as much as does not responding to the terrorists.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:24 pm
 


Sometimes a little evil must be committed to achieve a greater good. This is not a struggle amongst nations, its a struggle along ideology, the price, if we fail to realize this- is the total and utter destruction of our culture and civilisation, and the advancements we've made as a progressive society will be swept away and replaced by oppression.

There is no real way to combat the insidiousness of groups ISIS, especially when the entire world is connected in the manner it is. We could close our boarders and censor the web and run afoul of the left/SJW's, or we could leave everything as is and anger the right.

Its a catch 22. Personally I'm for putting troops on the ground and showing ISIS why Canada and her allies won the last 2 world wars.

For sure we need to end this squabbling with Russia, Crimea has historically been Russian Territory. We need Putin's support for this to work, and once ISIS has been defeated, the West must abandon this unwritten policy of toppling leaders they don't like. Guys like Hussein and Gaddafi were pieces of shit, no doubt, but they kept the other pieces of shit in line, and thus the world seemed more stable.

I dunno, I suspect things are too far gone and only a world war (or giant meteor) with reset the lunacy of this current era.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:53 am
 


llama66 wrote:
Personally I'm for putting troops on the ground and showing ISIS why Canada and her allies won the last 2 world wars.


ISIS isn't just in the middle east. They have their twisted followers here too.

Like you said, sometimes a little evil must be committed for the greater good. A body hanging by the neck from a light pole in the middle of town with a sign around it's neck saying "ISIS Sympathizer" might send a pretty clear message to those thinking of a little mayhem. The message that while such attitudes may play well in the deserts of Africa and Arabia, they don't go so well here.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:22 am
 


DrCaleb wrote:
A body hanging by the neck from a light pole in the middle of town with a sign around it's neck saying "ISIS Sympathizer" might send a pretty clear message to those thinking of a little mayhem. The message that while such attitudes may play well in the deserts of Africa and Arabia, they don't go so well here.


It will deter people from expressing openly any sympathy for ISIS, but not prevent the sympathy itself - probably the opposite. And since the actual jihadis mostly are bent on suicide anyway, it will do nothing to stop the attacks. That Driver idiot was just the latest who was bent on blowing himself up.

Canada engaging more with the Muslim community, and putting more pressure on it to stand up and speak out against the scourge of jihad is needed. The sort of hatred expressed against all Muslims on this forum and in society in general will do nothing in that regard. In fact it is exactly what Daesh wants. We do need to Toews our Muslims a bit - ie "you're either with us, then welcome, or against us and standing with the terrorists." And if the latter, there will be consequences.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:24 am
 


The Muslims will inevitably do something that will so offend the sensibilities of even liberal-minded people that there will be no rational response left aside from ousting these people from our societies.

What things could they do?

Here's some of the things that the US Department of Homeland Security worries about (no, I can't post links or documents so take it as you will):

* A coordinated attack on an elementary school along the lines of Beslan.

* An attack on a movie theatre while a movie that is offensive to Muslims is playing.

* An attack on a crowded public beach where women are dressed immodestly and the sexes mix in violation of the repressive shariah laws.

* A truck bomb attack on a major piece of infrastructure like a critical tunnel or bridge...this can also be accomplished with a massive ship-borne explosion detonated underneath a bridge.

* A coordinated attack on a parade or similar event. Mardi Gras (Catholic) and gay pride events are particular targets of interest.

* An attack on a crowded church on a Sunday morning.

And, of course, the inevitable nuclear attack on a Western (probably US) city. I say 'inevitable' because Iran is going full steam ahead with their nuclear program and they will absolutely either use the weapons themselves or hand them off to terror groups to use.

In any case, one or more of these attacks will provide the eventual tipping point where tolerance and those who promote tolerance will be silenced and justifiably fearful people will determine that the risks of having Muslims in our communities comes at too high a price.

Now before anyone calls me paranoid note that all of the scenarios above preceded by an asterisk * is something that was either planned by a Muslim group and not yet attempted or it was stopped while the attack was being prepared.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:11 am
 


andyt wrote:
And since the actual jihadis mostly are bent on suicide anyway, it will do nothing to stop the attacks. That Driver idiot was just the latest who was bent on blowing himself up.


I beg to differ. If suicide were their goal, a sharp blade and some privacy would be all they need. Murder is their goal, along with the recognition in the media of their acts of terror.

There is no glorious martyrs death in the name of Allah in getting curb stomped and hung unceremoniously from a pole to rot in the sun.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:43 am
 


So you're going to hang them before they've actually done anything except praise Daesh?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:46 am
 


andyt wrote:
So you're going to hang them before they've actually done anything except praise Daesh?


That alone is bad enough to warrant a fair trial and a good hanging.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:55 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:
andyt wrote:
So you're going to hang them before they've actually done anything except praise Daesh?


That alone is bad enough to warrant a fair trial and a good hanging.


^^ Beats waiting for them to raze a school full of kids, or some other such horror they dream up.

I am all about the rule of law, but the line between declaring yourself a killer of the unfaithful and carrying out actions in that spirit is measured in the bodies of innocents. It was those bodies in France under tarps with toy dolls beside them that changed me from optimistic to pessimistic on this. I'd like to think early intervention - identification, counseling, peace bonds - could prevent tragedy, but it hasn't so far.

If they sympathize for ISIS, they are already too far gone and it will result in blood in the streets. Make an example of them early, avoid the rush; I say.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:30 pm
 


BartSimpson wrote:
The Muslims will inevitably do something that will so offend the sensibilities of even liberal-minded people that there will be no rational response left aside from ousting these people from our societies.

...

In any case, one or more of these attacks will provide the eventual tipping point where tolerance and those who promote tolerance will be silenced and justifiably fearful people will determine that the risks of having Muslims in our communities comes at too high a price.

Now before anyone calls me paranoid note that all of the scenarios above preceded by an asterisk * is something that was either planned by a Muslim group and not yet attempted or it was stopped while the attack was being prepared.


That explains why we need to fight, Bart. But the problem comes when we end up throwing innocents like Maher Arar to the wolves, and otherwise harassing people whose only "crime" is wanting to live in peace with the rest of us while using their freedom of religion-a freedom that is enshrined in both our countries' Constitutions.

How do we avoid, or at least reduce the risk, of that?

And if we're not fighting for these freedoms, then what are we fighting for?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:35 pm
 


JaredMilne wrote:

And if we're not fighting for these freedoms, then what are we fighting for?


Existential and cultural survival. Saving freedom is a secondary issue next to the much greater priority.


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