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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:03 pm
 


John Ivison: Trudeau is right to reject hostage diplomacy with China

Quote:
Justin Trudeau said that he “deeply disagrees” with the idea of buckling to Chinese pressure and ending the extradition process surrounding Huawei executive, Meng Wanzhou, as a means of securing the release of two Canadians facing espionage charges in China.

That should come as no surprise.

After all, he once told his own mother that if she or his children were held hostage, he would not compromise his office to save them.

In 2016, two Canadians were kidnapped by Filipino jihadists with allegiances to Islamic State. John Ridsdel was beheaded almost immediately but Robert Hall was held as a prisoner by militants in the southern Philippines.

It was Trudeau’s first test of Canada’s no-ransom policy — a policy that may not have been as rigid as the government claimed (leaked U.S. memos suggested the Harper government had contributed to ransom cash to free diplomats Robert Fowler and Louis Guay in 2009). But Trudeau was adamant. “Paying ransom for Canadians would endanger the lives of every single one of the millions of Canadians who live, work and travel round the globe every year,” he said.

Hall’s severed head was found a month or so later.

Trudeau’s position was resolute — to the point where he is said to have told his mother Margaret that if she or his children were ever kidnapped, he would have to “do his duty” — just as his father Pierre had done at the time of the October Crisis in 1970, when British trade commissioner, James Cross, and Quebec labour minister, Pierre Laporte, were kidnapped by the Front de libération du Québec (Cross was released but Laporte was murdered).

As part of the research for my book on Trudeau, I asked him if his decision in the Hall case haunted him.

“I’ll remember it forever but it was not necessarily a difficult decision, in the sense that it was obvious you can’t negotiate with terrorists and put at risk the lives of millions of Canadians around the world,” he said.

He used similar language on Thursday in his daily press conference. “If countries around the world, including China, realize that by arbitrarily arresting Canadians, they can get what they want out of Canada politically, that would make an awful lot more Canadians who travel around the world vulnerable to that kind of pressure,” he said.

The family of one of the detained Canadians, Michael Kovrig, has put pressure on Trudeau’s position this week by releasing a legal opinion that Justice Minister David Lametti has the power under the Extradition Act to order Meng’s release.

Extradition is an executive decision, more a matter of diplomacy than law, according to lawyer Brian Greenspan.

That point was endorsed by 19 high profile former politicians, diplomats, academics, judges and journalists, including former hostage Fowler. They made the case that the government should release Meng and negotiate with the Chinese for the release of Kovrig and the other Canadian, Michael Spavor. Doing so would be in accordance with the rule of law and free up the government to redefine a harder line with China.

As Fowler told the CBC, “Make concessions. It’s an imperfect world.”

But Trudeau’s response was unwavering. “I respect these individuals but they are wrong in their approach,” he said.

The Chinese government, which has to this point denied any link between Meng’s detention and the arrest of the two Michaels, pointed to the legal opinion as an opportunity for a deal. “Such options are within the rule of law and could open up space for resolution to the situation of the two Canadians,” said Zhao Lijian, a spokesman for the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

But Trudeau is surely correct that bending to such blatant extortion would create a dangerous precedent.

The clandestine efforts to free Fowler were one thing; a very public capitulation to the Chinese over Meng is quite another.

The recognition by the Chinese that the detentions of Meng, Kovrig and Spavor are linked indicates that China is as far beyond the norms of acceptable behaviour as any terror group.

Trudeau told reporters that Canada must remain “steadfast and strong” in its position and “say clearly in actions and words that randomly arresting Canadians doesn’t give you leverage over the government of Canada.”

It is not news the families want to hear. The prime minister said he has met with a number of family members and “feels deeply” for the hardship they are facing.

But this is a man who was raised by a father who had stared down terrorists.

Pierre said the October Crisis taught him that it is “essential to have at the helm of state, a very firm hand, one that sets a course that never alters, that does not attempt to do everything at once out of excitement or confusion.”

The consequence of making such life and death decisions weighed heavily on the father — as they likely do on the son. Margaret Trudeau later noted of her husband that on the night Laporte was killed, she heard him crying. “It was as if Laporte’s death lay on his shoulders alone: he was the one who wouldn’t negotiate, he was the man who would now have to take responsibility for the murder of an innocent man. It gave him a new bitterness, a hard sadness I had never seen before.”

It is the son’s turn to make those kinds of grave decisions, with family members like Kovrig’s father Bennett stating publicly that failure to negotiate a deal is “tantamount to a historic betrayal.”

Trudeau said his government continues to “look at a range of options,” when asked about the prospect of revoking Chinese student visas or sanctioning officials involved in the case of the two Michaels.

But it is clear from all he has said since taking office that whatever action follows, the option of a furtive prisoner swap has been ruled out.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:08 pm
 


Well I'll be damned. I just watched him on TV at lunch speaking about our friends the Red Chinese and their use of hostages to force a specific result. And, for the first time in his tenure he looked and sounded like a real leader. [cheer]

And for the record he's absolutely right that if we give in to that asshole Xi and the Chinese gov't this time we'll end up doing it forever. A fact which will endanger every Canadian citizen that is in China or, who the Chinese can lay their hands on.

But, in fairness, his stance on our previous hostages situation painted him into a corner. He let Robert Hall and John Ridsdel be beheaded in the Philippines while claiming Canada didn't deal with terrorists which, while being a hard stance was the right one for the same reasons as this incident. So, some of this anger might have been self preservation because, if he had caved to the Red Chinese Gov't he'd be perceived as one of if not the biggest hypocrites in Canadian history.

But, to his credit he didn't cave to the most vocal members in his party and the families of the detained (and I do feel great sympathy for them) clamouring for the release of Miss Red China 2020 and he stood up for Canada like he's supposed to do.

Well done Mr. Trudeau now here's hoping that our judicial system does the right thing and deports this troublesome and entitled bitch to the US so they can have the pleasure of her company and all the benefits that entails.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:17 pm
 


Hear! Hear!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:21 pm
 


^ agree

Not to diss anyone overseas but Canadians in places like China are gonna have to smarten up a bit and not go there unless it is absolutely necessary. And if they do go they're going to have to acknowledge the reality that the Canadian government isn't in a position to save them if the host country pulls these kinds of shenanigans. The individual traveler or visitor is going to have to take some responsibility while outside of Canadian borders. There are risks associated with holidaying in Iran or spreading the word of the Bible in some deep dark swamp. The government can't logically be expected to come running to the rescue when something bad happens to these people.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:15 am
 


Freakinoldguy wrote:
Well I'll be damned. I just watched him on TV at lunch speaking about our friends the Red Chinese and their use of hostages to force a specific result. And, for the first time in his tenure he looked and sounded like a real leader. [cheer]

And for the record he's absolutely right that if we give in to that asshole Xi and the Chinese gov't this time we'll end up doing it forever. A fact which will endanger every Canadian citizen that is in China or, who the Chinese can lay their hands on.

But, in fairness, his stance on our previous hostages situation painted him into a corner. He let Robert Hall and John Ridsdel be beheaded in the Philippines while claiming Canada didn't deal with terrorists which, while being a hard stance was the right one for the same reasons as this incident. So, some of this anger might have been self preservation because, if he had caved to the Red Chinese Gov't he'd be perceived as one of if not the biggest hypocrites in Canadian history.

But, to his credit he didn't cave to the most vocal members in his party and the families of the detained (and I do feel great sympathy for them) clamouring for the release of Miss Red China 2020 and he stood up for Canada like he's supposed to do.

Well done Mr. Trudeau now here's hoping that our judicial system does the right thing and deports this troublesome and entitled bitch to the US so they can have the pleasure of her company and all the benefits that entails.


R=UP

Not to mention that our international reputation with regards to deportation is also at stake. If other countries can't rely on the treaties we've made, we can't rely on them either.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:32 pm
 


There’s a lot of grey in these situations. If the Americans were genuinely keen to help us they could have demanded the two Michaels back during their recent trade negotiations with China, but they didn’t despite being asked to by JT:

Quote:
In an interview with TVA network’s morning show Salut Bonjour that aired Thursday, Mr. Trudeau was asked about a tentative deal that would be a first step in ending a trade war between the United States and China – and whether it could lead to a resolution of the plight of Mr. Kovrig and Mr. Spavor.

“We’ve said that the United States should not sign a final and complete agreement with China that does not settle the question of Meng Wanzhou and the two Canadians," Mr. Trudeau said in French.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politic ... ina-until/



Regarding travel in the future, many more countries will owe favours (and lots of money) to China, so one might get nabbed in virtually any continent for alleged offences against the CCP. The West and its friends will have to work together better to stop such banditry. Unfortunately, we all seem to be heading in the other direction.

Are we a soft touch on extradition? Look at the Anne Sacoolas case. While driving merrily on the wrong side of the road in the UK, she killed a young motorcyclist. The US government got her home pronto and are now refusing to cooperate with the UK, claiming she has diplomatic immunity. Even if she was a diplomat of some weird type, allegedly now ex-CIA, such immunity is not meant to cover flagrant negligence while driving on the roads of a closely allied nation. The basic facts are not in dispute here.

Quote:
The US has said its decision to refuse an extradition request for Harry Dunn's alleged killer was final.
It comes after an Interpol Red Notice was issued for US national Anne Sacoolas who is now "wanted internationally".
A US official said she had diplomatic immunity, but Downing Street branded the refusal "a denial of justice".
Mr Dunn, 19, died after a crash in Northamptonshire, with Mrs Sacoolas accused of death by dangerous driving.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nor ... e-52630089

How come the US doesn’t have to worry about its precious international reputation? Well, for starters, it knows Brexit Britain is utterly desperate for a trade deal and will have to cave on this. Rule of law, how are you.


Last edited by Sunnyways on Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:45 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:24 pm
 


Scape wrote:
John Ivison: Trudeau is right to reject hostage diplomacy with China

Quote:
Justin Trudeau said that he “deeply disagrees” with the idea of buckling to Chinese pressure and ending the extradition process surrounding Huawei executive, Meng Wanzhou, as a means of securing the release of two Canadians facing espionage charges in China.

That should come as no surprise.

After all, he once told his own mother that if she or his children were held hostage, he would not compromise his office to save them.

In 2016, two Canadians were kidnapped by Filipino jihadists with allegiances to Islamic State. John Ridsdel was beheaded almost immediately but Robert Hall was held as a prisoner by militants in the southern Philippines.

It was Trudeau’s first test of Canada’s no-ransom policy — a policy that may not have been as rigid as the government claimed (leaked U.S. memos suggested the Harper government had contributed to ransom cash to free diplomats Robert Fowler and Louis Guay in 2009). But Trudeau was adamant. “Paying ransom for Canadians would endanger the lives of every single one of the millions of Canadians who live, work and travel round the globe every year,” he said.

Hall’s severed head was found a month or so later.

Trudeau’s position was resolute — to the point where he is said to have told his mother Margaret that if she or his children were ever kidnapped, he would have to “do his duty” — just as his father Pierre had done at the time of the October Crisis in 1970, when British trade commissioner, James Cross, and Quebec labour minister, Pierre Laporte, were kidnapped by the Front de libération du Québec (Cross was released but Laporte was murdered).

As part of the research for my book on Trudeau, I asked him if his decision in the Hall case haunted him.

“I’ll remember it forever but it was not necessarily a difficult decision, in the sense that it was obvious you can’t negotiate with terrorists and put at risk the lives of millions of Canadians around the world,” he said.

He used similar language on Thursday in his daily press conference. “If countries around the world, including China, realize that by arbitrarily arresting Canadians, they can get what they want out of Canada politically, that would make an awful lot more Canadians who travel around the world vulnerable to that kind of pressure,” he said.

The family of one of the detained Canadians, Michael Kovrig, has put pressure on Trudeau’s position this week by releasing a legal opinion that Justice Minister David Lametti has the power under the Extradition Act to order Meng’s release.

Extradition is an executive decision, more a matter of diplomacy than law, according to lawyer Brian Greenspan.

That point was endorsed by 19 high profile former politicians, diplomats, academics, judges and journalists, including former hostage Fowler. They made the case that the government should release Meng and negotiate with the Chinese for the release of Kovrig and the other Canadian, Michael Spavor. Doing so would be in accordance with the rule of law and free up the government to redefine a harder line with China.

As Fowler told the CBC, “Make concessions. It’s an imperfect world.”

But Trudeau’s response was unwavering. “I respect these individuals but they are wrong in their approach,” he said.

The Chinese government, which has to this point denied any link between Meng’s detention and the arrest of the two Michaels, pointed to the legal opinion as an opportunity for a deal. “Such options are within the rule of law and could open up space for resolution to the situation of the two Canadians,” said Zhao Lijian, a spokesman for the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

But Trudeau is surely correct that bending to such blatant extortion would create a dangerous precedent.

The clandestine efforts to free Fowler were one thing; a very public capitulation to the Chinese over Meng is quite another.

The recognition by the Chinese that the detentions of Meng, Kovrig and Spavor are linked indicates that China is as far beyond the norms of acceptable behaviour as any terror group.

Trudeau told reporters that Canada must remain “steadfast and strong” in its position and “say clearly in actions and words that randomly arresting Canadians doesn’t give you leverage over the government of Canada.”

It is not news the families want to hear. The prime minister said he has met with a number of family members and “feels deeply” for the hardship they are facing.

But this is a man who was raised by a father who had stared down terrorists.

Pierre said the October Crisis taught him that it is “essential to have at the helm of state, a very firm hand, one that sets a course that never alters, that does not attempt to do everything at once out of excitement or confusion.”

The consequence of making such life and death decisions weighed heavily on the father — as they likely do on the son. Margaret Trudeau later noted of her husband that on the night Laporte was killed, she heard him crying. “It was as if Laporte’s death lay on his shoulders alone: he was the one who wouldn’t negotiate, he was the man who would now have to take responsibility for the murder of an innocent man. It gave him a new bitterness, a hard sadness I had never seen before.”

It is the son’s turn to make those kinds of grave decisions, with family members like Kovrig’s father Bennett stating publicly that failure to negotiate a deal is “tantamount to a historic betrayal.”

Trudeau said his government continues to “look at a range of options,” when asked about the prospect of revoking Chinese student visas or sanctioning officials involved in the case of the two Michaels.

But it is clear from all he has said since taking office that whatever action follows, the option of a furtive prisoner swap has been ruled out.


R=UP

This position is no different than Reagan's when he said he wasn't going to negotiate with terrorists, because once you give in to one, they all start grabbing your citizens and trading them back for their buddies, cash, whatever they can wring out of you.

The only thing I'd change is getting Trudeau to be a bit more forceful and added China to a watch list or something, to warn Canadians not to travel there at all. COVID-19 would have been the perfect time to enact such a warning, and then just leave it in place until they return the Two Michaels.

I wish the Two Michaels the best, but we can't protect everyone who decides to live and work in dictatorships around the world. If they are convicted of these BS charges in China, we need to retaliate.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:45 pm
 


Right after Reagan gave in to the terrorists in Iran, that is.
Sneakily, under the table and illegal as all get out.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:44 pm
 


herbie wrote:
Right after Reagan gave in to the terrorists in Iran, that is.
Sneakily, under the table and illegal as all get out.


In that example we got to hear about it but many deals stay off the books.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:07 pm
 


Quote:
John Bolton believes Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou's extradition case is solid and that he himself would be willing to testify in a Canadian court against suggestions it is politically motivated, the former White House national security adviser said in his first Canadian media interview, with CBC Radio's The Current, since releasing his new book.

"The facts are what the facts are," said Bolton. "It's very clear what the purpose of the arrest was — it was not politically motivated at all and I'd be happy to testify under oath to that effect in a Canadian court."

Trump had little interest in the fine-grained details of charges Meng faces for allegedly skirting U.S. sanctions and viewed the case with far-ranging international implications in transactional terms, he said.

He writes in his book, The Room Where It Happened: A White House Memoir, that Trump even offered to reverse the Huawei prosecution last year.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/bol ... -1.5628262


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