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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:24 pm
 


commanderkai commanderkai:
Lemmy Lemmy:
World class 20th century cities, yes. World class 21st century cities won't resemble anything we currently know.


This is certainly a very interesting prediction. How so?

How different is a modern city in 2011 from one in 1911? It'll be at least that much different in 2111.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:35 pm
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
commanderkai commanderkai:
Lemmy Lemmy:
World class 20th century cities, yes. World class 21st century cities won't resemble anything we currently know.


This is certainly a very interesting prediction. How so?

How different is a modern city in 2011 from one in 1911?

Different demographics and a noticable absence of horse drawn carriages? :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:44 pm
 


PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
Different demographics and a noticable absence of horse drawn carriages? :lol:

That's exactly my point. In 100 years, "the city" has adapted to the automobile. 100 years from now it will have adapted to no longer having cars. I don't disagree with a lot of what Ford's planning to do in terms of cost-cutting. But his declaration that "the war against the automobile in Toronto is over" is galactically short-sighted.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:53 pm
 


Well, to be fair, that adaptation only took about 10-12 years.
Without an outright ban, I just don't foresee the day cities are free of personal mechanized transportation.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:24 pm
 


PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
Well, to be fair, that adaptation only took about 10-12 years.

It only took 10 years to adapt to automobiles?

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
Without an outright ban, I just don't foresee the day cities are free of personal mechanized transportation.

We shall see, but whatever that method of conveyance is, it won't be cars. To make cities MORE accomodating to automobile traffic is foolish.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:51 pm
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
That's exactly my point. In 100 years, "the city" has adapted to the automobile. 100 years from now it will have adapted to no longer having cars. I don't disagree with a lot of what Ford's planning to do in terms of cost-cutting. But his declaration that "the war against the automobile in Toronto is over" is galactically short-sighted.


You're extremely optimistic, to put it bluntly. So far, automobiles, trucks, and other modes of private motorized transporation are extremely important for workers, business owners, etc. Just jumping to the conclusion that cities will adapt to "no longer having cars" is a bit of a stretch, especially since horse drawn carriages and carts were in service for a few hundred years.


If you want to use the same logic over the switch from horse drawn carriages to motorized transportation, cars are just in their infancy of their utilization by the masses.

Oh, and even if you are right, that doesn't change the current reality that cars are dominating now. Trying to change how many people get around, by providing poor services to motorized transport is a galactic sized mistake as well, since hoping for some alternative 50 or 100 years from now doesn't change current realities.


Last edited by commanderkai on Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:22 am
 


The current reality that cars are dominating is leading to way long commutes.
$1:
Toronto commuting times worst of 19 major cities, study says.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/article/787400--toronto-commuting-times-worst-of-19-major-cities-study-says Is that really working out that well?

$1:
Population growth studies have projected the City of Toronto's population in 2031 to be 3,000,000 and the Greater Toronto Area's population to be 7,450,000 (source), but some sources state that it could reach 7.7 million by 2025.[4]
(wiki) You really have room for all those extra cars those people will need if you continue to focus on cars for transportation?

I know, I know, if you could just get rid of the streetcars and bikes, everything would be golden.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:21 am
 


andyt andyt:
The current reality that cars are dominating is leading to way long commutes.
$1:
Toronto commuting times worst of 19 major cities, study says.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/article/787400--toronto-commuting-times-worst-of-19-major-cities-study-says Is that really working out that well?

$1:
Population growth studies have projected the City of Toronto's population in 2031 to be 3,000,000 and the Greater Toronto Area's population to be 7,450,000 (source), but some sources state that it could reach 7.7 million by 2025.[4]
(wiki) You really have room for all those extra cars those people will need if you continue to focus on cars for transportation?

I know, I know, if you could just get rid of the streetcars and bikes, everything would be golden.


Ahh, that's right. There's a problem with cars in the cities? Just ban them! No more traffic! :roll:

Guess what? So far, there is no major alternative for private transport except the automobile. Banning cars because the city won't cope with infrastructure changes is just...rather silly, no?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:54 am
 


commanderkai commanderkai:
andyt andyt:
The current reality that cars are dominating is leading to way long commutes.
$1:
Toronto commuting times worst of 19 major cities, study says.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/article/787400--toronto-commuting-times-worst-of-19-major-cities-study-says Is that really working out that well?

$1:
Population growth studies have projected the City of Toronto's population in 2031 to be 3,000,000 and the Greater Toronto Area's population to be 7,450,000 (source), but some sources state that it could reach 7.7 million by 2025.[4]
(wiki) You really have room for all those extra cars those people will need if you continue to focus on cars for transportation?

I know, I know, if you could just get rid of the streetcars and bikes, everything would be golden.


Ahh, that's right. There's a problem with cars in the cities? Just ban them! No more traffic! :roll:

Guess what? So far, there is no major alternative for private transport except the automobile. Banning cars because the city won't cope with infrastructure changes is just...rather silly, no?


Arguing is easy if you just make shit up - where did I write about banning cars?

The city won't cope with infrastructure changes? Won't? Just holding it's breath til it turns blue? You have some scheme how to accomodate ever more cars in the same space, genius? You should let cities across the world know about it, since they all struggle with this question. You'd win a prize for sure.


Toronto’s Traffic Time Bomb http://www.torontolife.com/features/monster-jam/
$1:
The future, whether viewed from a gridlocked highway, a subway platform, or MacIsaac’s desk, is grimmer still. Queen’s Park estimates that the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area’s population will increase by nearly 2.6 million by 2031. That will add close to a million more cars to the morning rush hour—all trying to access roads that are already chockablock. By these estimates, it’s easy to imagine the average commute time stretching beyond the two-hour mark, the economic costs of congestion doubling and the death toll rising along with emissions. As The New Yorker writer John Seabrook once put it, this is the way the world ends: not with a bang but with a traffic jam.


Traffic jams cost Toronto $3.3B per year: OECD http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2009/11/10/oecd-traffic.html


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:12 am
 


$1:
Arguing is easy if you just make shit up

works for you, so turn about seems to be fair play.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:46 am
 


PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
I think some of these nancy-boy reporters/bloggers should pay a visit to a Third-World country like ....Wales and see what a shit-hole really looks like instead of watching it on youtube.

You sir, can go pound salt.



I put that bit in just for you!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:52 am
 


Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:

Yes, because creating a transit and bike friendly city is not helping make Toronto a showcase city. :roll:


Time to wake up.

This is Canada. It snows. It's cold in the winter.

It makes no sense to build infrastructure for a tiny group of people who can only use that infrastructure for 6 months out of the year. Sure, be bike friendly, make trails but stop closing down car lanes for bike lanes.

Creating transit is a great idea. Street cars are a bad idea, regardless of how you spin it or if you call it "Light Rail".

Toronto is an old City with congested roads and the amount of cars is only going to INCREASE. Removing lanes for bikes and using another for street cars just doesn't make sense.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:01 am
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
Different demographics and a noticable absence of horse drawn carriages? :lol:

That's exactly my point. In 100 years, "the city" has adapted to the automobile. 100 years from now it will have adapted to no longer having cars. I don't disagree with a lot of what Ford's planning to do in terms of cost-cutting. But his declaration that "the war against the automobile in Toronto is over" is galactically short-sighted.


To think that cars won't be around in 100 years is naive at best, considering the business and transport use alone. I think we will see an end to gasoline based vehicles during that time but the car will be far from gone.

The Greater Toronto Area is bursting at the seams. We can't move people from Durham or Mississauga to Toronto fast enough with transit so many take the car.

Unless the GTA adopts some massive transit plans over the next 20 years, the roads are only going to get worse as areas outside the GTA expand and there's no transit to serve them.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:25 am
 


I agree with OTI. Losing lanes to bikes is silly. As he pointed out, 4-5 months of the year the weather is totally shite. Toronto should have built a decent underground decades ago but didn't. When I go into TO, I use the Go Train which is quick and semi-convenient. Driving is a pain in the arse but it is in any large city. Such is life.

Ford's 'end of the war on the car' is the right way to go. For far too long the city has been led by the lefty elite espousing wind farms, solar power and bike lanes. None of which are either economically prudent or a good use of scant resources.


It's the same mantra with the provincial Liberals and their 'green' energy plan which entails giving Samsung billions of tax payers money and jacking up all our hydro bills.

Ford is closing down a hobby farm, looking and cuts to services we can no longer afford or fund. Dozens of 'special' interest groups will have their funding cut, the free ride some have been on for years is over.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:41 am
 


Maybe they need bike tunnels!


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