[llama66]

Fascism is such a bitch to define because I understand it to be anti-liberal. anti-conservative, anti-capitalist and anti-communist. It defies our current notions of political schools of thought. Even though it was reputed to have been created (?) by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Even though the concept has been around for a couple thousand years.

[BartSimpson]

llama66 llama66:

Fascism is such a bitch to define because I understand it to be anti-liberal. anti-conservative, anti-capitalist and anti-communist. It defies our current notions of political schools of thought. Even though it was reputed to have been created (?) by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Even though the concept has been around for a couple thousand years.

Fascism is anti-communist only to the extent that fascist parties compete politically with communist parties.

Fascism itself is almost communism.

[Sunnyways]

While both are authoritarian ideologies, fascism has a much stronger nativist and tribal component than communism.

[Sunnyways]

The title put me on the wrong track completely. I was going to suggest that this compound does not produce a happy finish and should be avoided by anyone contemplating popping their clogs:

$1:

According to the Centers for Disease Control, ingesting paraquat causes symptoms such as liver, lung, heart, and kidney failure within several days to several weeks that can lead to death up to 30 days after ingestion. Those who suffer large exposures are unlikely to survive. Chronic exposure can lead to lung damage, kidney failure, heart failure, and oesophageal strictures.[32] Accidental deaths and suicides from paraquat ingestion are relatively common. For example, there are more than 5,000 deaths in China from paraquat poisoning every year.[33] Long-term exposures to paraquat would most likely cause lung and eye damage, but reproductive/fertility damage was not found by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in their review.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraquat

[BartSimpson]

Back during my brief stint in law enforcement they used paraquat as a defoliant for marijuana grows. Pretty damned effective, too. They'd spray it on and an hour later the plants were all withered and yellowed.

[martin14]

Individualist Individualist:

martin14 martin14:

Individualist Individualist:

communism and fascism,

Oh I thought we would be talking about different things,
not two sides of the same coin.

Yes, but one side of the coin is being pounded

No, it's the same sides of the same coin.
I can appreciate most people miss this part, so did I for many years.

We were sold a massive lie by our education systems, somehow thinking
Communism and Fascism were diametrically opposed systems blah blah blah.

But they aren't; they are in fact virtually the same. Massive government control over every aspect of life.
People cry 'oh Nat Soc is bad because the industrialists get rich'.
'Therefore Communism must be better, because no one gets rich.'
I can assure you there are lots of rich people in Communist systems as well.
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if the division tactic used is class, or tribalism, or whatever.
What does matter, is the massive government control over absolutely everything.

The lethal poison..... is government.
Either we start removing government from every aspect of life, or it will be removed for us at some point.
People need freedom. Including the freedom to fail.

[llama66]

martin14 martin14:

The lethal poison..... is government.
Either we start removing government from every aspect of life, or it will be removed for us at some point.
People need freedom. Including the freedom to fail.

I don't disagree but, it'll never happen. Humans are too social, and as such have this "desire" to want to rule and be ruled over. Call it human nature. Were it not in our nature, this experiment with government would have ended in the Age of Enlightenment.

We totally need to set boundaries for Government to follow, but the true poison, to me, is the lobbyists. They're the ones responsible for the intrusive policies that get enacted in government. Take money and lobbyists out of the halls of power and repeal all the laws they influenced, and the world will be a better place.

[DrCaleb]

llama66 llama66:

We totally need to set boundaries for Government to follow, but the true poison, to me, is the lobbyists. They're the ones responsible for the intrusive policies that get enacted in government. Take money and lobbyists out of the halls of power and repeal all the laws they influenced, and the world will be a better place.

[BeaverFever]

martin14 martin14:

No, it's the same sides of the same coin.
I can appreciate most people miss this part, so did I for many years.

We were sold a massive lie by our education systems, somehow thinking
Communism and Fascism were diametrically opposed systems blah blah blah.

But they aren't; they are in fact virtually the same. Massive government control over every aspect of life.
People cry 'oh Nat Soc is bad because the industrialists get rich'.
'Therefore Communism must be better, because no one gets rich.'
I can assure you there are lots of rich people in Communist systems as well.
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if the division tactic used is class, or tribalism, or whatever.
What does matter, is the massive government control over absolutely everything.

The lethal poison..... is government.
Either we start removing government from every aspect of life, or it will be removed for us at some point.
People need freedom. Including the freedom to fail.

Barely any governments in Somalia or Afghanistan buddy. How you like that “freedom”?

Fascism is far right dictatorship. Communism is far left dictatorship. They can be fundamentally different. But arguing over which is better is stupid.

[llama66]

The only government I want is the government in "Starship Troopers". Its probably Fascist, but I like the idea of Citizen vs. Civilian. Both have the same rights save one, the right to vote. Everybody is afforded the opportunity to become a Citizen... just gotta complete 2 years of federal service, you opt out or flunk out, that door closes and nothing really changes for you, you just lose the right to vote.

And because I suck at explaining

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terran_Federation_(Starship_Troopers)

[BartSimpson]

Sunnyways Sunnyways:

While both are authoritarian ideologies, fascism has a much stronger nativist and tribal component than communism.

No, you're confusing the economic models with political platforms.

Economic fascism doesn't have any ideology attached to it at all. It's just a system.

Any system can have strong nativist and tribal components. The assertion that this is somehow unique to fascism is pure propaganda.

[BartSimpson]

llama66 llama66:

The only government I want is the government in "Starship Troopers". Its probably Fascist, but I like the idea of Citizen vs. Civilian. Both have the same rights save one, the right to vote. Everybody is afforded the opportunity to become a Citizen... just gotta complete 2 years of federal service, you opt out or flunk out, that door closes and nothing really changes for you, you just lose the right to vote.

And because I suck at explaining

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terran_Federation_(Starship_Troopers)

The Terran Federation was not at all fascist. Militarist? Yes, but only to the extent that the civilians who ran the government had to have first served in the military to qualify to run for office.

Quite to the contrary of fascism, Heinlein's government appeared to be quite libertarian in how it managed civilian affairs. Private schools abounded, corporations worked freely (although clearly subject to strict accountability for crimes), and no one was compelled to serve the government...compulsive service of any kind being utterly anathema to Heinlein's military culture.

Plenty of societies have been militaristic without being fascist. Rome comes to mind, the British Empire, and etc.

[llama66]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

llama66 llama66:

The only government I want is the government in "Starship Troopers". Its probably Fascist, but I like the idea of Citizen vs. Civilian. Both have the same rights save one, the right to vote. Everybody is afforded the opportunity to become a Citizen... just gotta complete 2 years of federal service, you opt out or flunk out, that door closes and nothing really changes for you, you just lose the right to vote.

And because I suck at explaining

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terran_Federation_(Starship_Troopers)

The Terran Federation was not at all fascist. Militarist? Yes, but only to the extent that the civilians who ran the government had to have first served in the military to qualify to run for office.

Quite to the contrary of fascism, Heinlein's government appeared to be quite libertarian in how it managed civilian affairs. Private schools abounded, corporations worked freely (although clearly subject to strict accountability for crimes), and no one was compelled to serve the government...compulsive service of any kind being utterly anathema to Heinlein's military culture.

Plenty of societies have been militaristic without being fascist. Rome comes to mind, the British Empire, and etc.

I still want it. In my defense I said its probably Fascist. The goddamn definition of Fascism keeps changing. I'm probably Fascist for christsakes.

[Tricks]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

martin14 martin14:

No, it's the same sides of the same coin.
I can appreciate most people miss this part, so did I for many years.

We were sold a massive lie by our education systems, somehow thinking
Communism and Fascism were diametrically opposed systems blah blah blah.

But they aren't; they are in fact virtually the same. Massive government control over every aspect of life.
People cry 'oh Nat Soc is bad because the industrialists get rich'.
'Therefore Communism must be better, because no one gets rich.'
I can assure you there are lots of rich people in Communist systems as well.
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if the division tactic used is class, or tribalism, or whatever.
What does matter, is the massive government control over absolutely everything.

The lethal poison..... is government.
Either we start removing government from every aspect of life, or it will be removed for us at some point.
People need freedom. Including the freedom to fail.

Barely any governments in Somalia or Afghanistan buddy. How you like that “freedom”?

Fascism is far right dictatorship. Communism is far left dictatorship. They can be fundamentally different. But arguing over which is better is stupid.

I think he's saying they're both dictatorship. Whereas a real measure is dictatorship vs anarchy.

[BartSimpson]

Fascism doesn't require a dictatorship to function. Neither does communism or any other system.

BUT...governance models in the socialist/left spectrum tend to facilitate dictatorships.

Venezuela is a fine example of a country that freely elected a socialist regime which then morphed over the years into a dictatorship.

But it wasn't a clear dictatorship even all through the Hugo Chavez years. Chavez actually managed to get legislative and judicial support for most of his acts.