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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:42 pm
 


I get that the PM appoints the Senators, I get that the PM USUALLY appoints people who are in line with the parties train of thought.

What I dont get is, why are these Senators listening to any party? Why are they towing party lines? I dont understand. Isnt a simple solution to keep the 'sober second thought' chamber independent is to....keep them independent?

I cannot imagine being a Senator and thinking "oh gee, my party is telling me to vote this way, or that way, so I better do it!". To me, isnt it more like "tough shit, pals, Im voting my conscience, deal with it".

Why isnt it this way? Why do they feel as though they have to answer to anyone, or any party other than the Province (they are supposed to be representing)?

The media is pushing this idea as well, and its obviously currently true, would be nice if it wasnt, but they are perpetuating the idea that they have to beholden to a certain party.

What am I missing, why do we have to settle for either Senate as it is, or no Senate at all and why do these guys think they have to vote a certain way?

Anyone have any idea why these people feel forced to think this way?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:59 pm
 


The Senators are part of the party's caucus. Probably all sorts of perks flow their way if they're being good little trained seals. Look at Duffy and the demands he could make on the PMO, because he was such a rainmaker for the CPC. Same with Wallin. They become prima donnas. So it just seems to be built into the system.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:01 pm
 


Why are they a part of the party's caucus at all? Has it been that way from the start?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:11 pm
 


Not sure but believe so. Basically the PM has a nice little plum to hand out, and he's going to make sure he gets maximum value for it. Senator's votes can actually be whipped, believe they were, or were threatened to be, in the expulsion of the terrible three. Well what power does the whip have - expulsion from caucus. Guess it means they won't be appointed to any committees and such. Maybe our senate should be acting more like the house of lords on which it is based, but I don't know enough about it to say. Us being colony rubes and all, maybe deference is more bred into our political blood. I don't really know much about the British system, but have the impression, that, just as they know how to use "their" language so much better than we do, they know how to do Parliament better too, since they invented it.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:34 pm
 


Huh, I hope maybe someone else with more knowledge comes into this thread and helps out.

It seems so strange that they are supposed to be another part of our government that basically mediates the laws that come from the house but yet they can be whipped by the very people the laws came from? And they are pretty much in the closed door meetings before hand. Seems extremely counter-productive in what its supposed to accomplish.

Im not naive enough to think that the Senators wouldn't have some form of political affiliation, in so much as they lean left or right, but to be in so deep seems so wrong to me. Definitely needs fixing.

Why arent they appointed to the Senate (not elected) by the Province anyways? Why is it up the PM?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:21 am
 


Of course the Senate was originally intended to be 'the house of sober thought', which meant that if the Party in power came up with some whacky notions like omnibus bills, they would review such bills and cut out the items that may not be in the best interest of all Canadians.

Of course that concept has gone to the wayside.

But on the subject of why Senators feel obligated to whomever chose them or even to the party in power is because, as we have seen, they can be rendered nugatory.

And let's face it. It's an old boys/girls club that sure beats having a non political job.



105 Senators work three days a week for 29 weeks a year. Senators are employed until they are 75 years old.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/ParlBusiness/sena ... 2012-e.htm


A senator makes $132,300 a year in salary plus expenses. They also receive more money for holding different positions like a committee chair or speaker.




Senate expenses can go as high as $300,000, but there is no documentation that the public is allowed to see that will tell you what the spending limits and regulations are. It is unavailable to the public. The senate is allowed to operate in secret with your money.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/ParlInfo/Lists/Sa ... 025a9cbb98



Roll up the Red Carpet



http://www.ndp.ca/news/mulcair-kicks-nd ... arpet-tour


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:38 am
 


The Senate is the Ancient Burial Ground of our federal political parties. That seems to be its primary function and al of that guff about "sober second thought" is merely spin.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:55 am
 


The concept of the senate is still a good one. Its execution, evidentially, is not. Does that mean we should abolish it? I dont think so. I think we need to reform it so that is serves its purpose. Pretty much every democracy in the world has several bodies of government where bills need to go through steps to get passed. Its a necessity in my eyes. It just needs a hell of a lot of work to get cleaned up and set right.

I would not want to give any one party, when in a majority position in our government, the power to pass anything they want at any time without any form of oversight of any kind no matter who that party may be, left or right on the political spectrum.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:10 am
 


Perhaps it would work better if Lt. Governors or Premiers were able to pick senators from their province or region. This removes some of the influence of the Commons to stack the senate with the sychophants of the government du jour :idea: :idea:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:41 am
 


Why are Senators beholden to a party? Because they mostly used to be party hacks.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:25 pm
 


Because that's who appoints them - the leader of the ruling party.

With Shep's idea of being appointed by premiers, at least there might be some balance between what's happening provincially and federally.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:27 pm
 


ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
Perhaps it would work better if Lt. Governors or Premiers were able to pick senators from their province or region. This removes some of the influence of the Commons to stack the senate with the sychophants of the government du jour :idea: :idea:


We tried that in Alberta, with that crazy "hey, maybe these assholes should actually have to be elected instead of merely appointed" idea that was circulating around here at the time. In response the rest of the country called us a bunch of ignorant backwoods Reform Party gay-hating racists who want to drop nukes on the poor and send the survivors off to be used for medical experiments. Ah, the memories of the awesomeness of the Chretien years and the type of left/liberal thought that was on display at any given time back then. The crosses are burning as we speak! :roll:


Last edited by Thanos on Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:27 pm
 


But they'll just be party hacks from the provinces then.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:38 pm
 


Pretty hard to get away from them being party hacks of one form or another, just as the MP's are. As I say, at least they might balance the federal govt a bit and actually provide some challenge to it. OTOH, I personally think in many ways the provinces already have too much power - we need national systems like health care and education etc.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:47 pm
 


$1:
Pretty much every democracy in the world has several bodies of government where bills need to go through steps to get passed.



Yes but a lot of them have elected people reading those bills. It's hard to call an appointed body of party hacks and stynchphants democratic in any way.


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