[badsector]

Perturbed, I think people here know exactly what you think of immigration. On the other hand there is a difference between arguing that immigration is bad for Canada and just expressing hatred for people who look different. The latter is kinda dumb.

[The Saint]

[QUOTE BY= badsector] Tell ya what... since it's your topic, you prove that immigration is bad for Canada.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Here's a site for you to check out: notcanada.com. Read everything there and then go to the links page and go to those sites as well.

[Reverend Blair]

[QUOTE]Canada was settled by mostly British immigrants. Their decendants built Canada.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Most of the people I know would take umbrage with this. Of course most of the people I know don't have anglo-saxon last names.<br /> <br /> I'd like to suggest that you walk into beer parlour in any small prairie town on a Saturday night and make this same assertion there, Perturbed. I'm sure the people in such a place would be very interested to hear it. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/lol.gif' alt='Laughing Out Loud'>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= badsector] Perturbed, I think people here know exactly what you think of immigration. On the other hand there is a difference between arguing that immigration is bad for Canada and just expressing hatred for people who look different. The latter is kinda dumb.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> They may or may not know what I think. What's wrong with a democratic exchange of ideas?<br /> <br /> I have NEVER ONCE said that I opposed immigration "becuase immigrants look different". NEVER. Good grief. Your insight shocks and amazes me.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Reverend Blair] [QUOTE]Canada was settled by mostly British immigrants. Their decendants built Canada.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Most of the people I know would take umbrage with this. Of course most of the people I know don't have anglo-saxon last names.<br /> <br /> I'd like to suggest that you walk into beer parlour in any small prairie town on a Saturday night and make this same assertion there, Perturbed. I'm sure the people in such a place would be very interested to hear it. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> I was talking about the past. Development of course always continues in places, but Canada was already built before a large scale influx in immigration from non-British sources.<br /> <br /> I assume you mean in many prairie towns many people might have a Polish or Ukrainian name. Some might even still speak Ukrainian. That's nice. However, in the past they were expected the assimilate culturally and there is no reason why we can't demand the same thing today in return for the privelege of immigrating here. That expectation could be made easily by cutting off funding of cultural festivals and making the demand publicly in a democratic and peaceful manner in the Canadian tradition.<br /> <br /> Many assimilate voluntarily or out of necessity anyway, especially after the first generation. <br /> <br /> I never said I thought everyone should have Anglo-Saxon last names so don't twist what I say. That said I wouldn't be surprised the socialists you hang around would think I were nuts. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <br /> <br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= The Saint] [QUOTE BY= badsector] Tell ya what... since it's your topic, you prove that immigration is bad for Canada.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Here's a site for you to check out: notcanada.com. Read everything there and then go to the links page and go to those sites as well.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> You almost wonder how many times we have to repeat ourselves for it to sink in. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'>

[The Saint]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= The Saint] [QUOTE BY= badsector] Tell ya what... since it's your topic, you prove that immigration is bad for Canada.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Here's a site for you to check out: notcanada.com. Read everything there and then go to the links page and go to those sites as well.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> You almost wonder how many times we have to repeat ourselves for it to sink in. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> We should expect such behaviour from them. Canadians have been bombarded for over 30 years of official Orwellian style government propaganda with tacit co-operation from the media when it comes to immigration that they block out anything that criticizes our immigration policy or the symptoms that show our policy is failing. Canadians have been brainwashed with slogans such as “diversity is our strength,” “we are a nation of immigrants,” “multiculturalism is our identity,” “…to seek a better life,” and “Canadians are a tolerant and accommodating people” that Canadians have become conditioned to say, act, think, and behave in a specific way. All those slogans are grandiose and designed to flatter us into submitting to official government policy as well as to silence critics and condition Canadians to ignore the critics. <br /> <br /> Canadians have been so successfully brainwashed that their behaviour is predictable. We can expect them to assume a critic is racist and bigoted first before they even bother to listen to him let alone consider his arguments We can see that here Vive.<br /> <br /> Since Canadians have been conditioned to accept our immigration policy without question, anything that supports our current immigration policy is accepted as fact even though these “facts” may be unsupportable and dubious. For instance Canadians are told that we need more immigrants because we have an aging population. All you have to do is say that and everyone agrees with you. However if you say that there is nothing to fully support that, which is true by the way, as well as suggest alternatives you have to explain yourself fully and then there is no guarantee that what you said is understood if it hasn’t been passed off as racist thinking. I am reminded of Noam Chomsky speaking of the state of American media. He said, and I am paraphrasing, that you can say that Iraq is a leading terrorist state and everyone accepts it without question however if you say that the U.S. is the leading terrorist state then you have to fully explain yourself while being called an anti-American. In other words the system is designed to condition people to think a specific way and to demonize the critics and that is the current state on discussing Canadian immigration policy.<br /> <br /> You and I, et al. are like the child you said that the Emperor has no clothes. Go to notcanada.com and watch the clip of the erstwhile immigration minister Joe Volpe being interviewed for a CTV news report. Joe Volpe’s behaviour is typically Canadian. The reporter shows Joe Volpe the notcanada.com site and Volpe chooses to ignore it and he says that he only wants “good things” said about Canada to potential immigrants. Apparently he doesn’t care about facts or that he is deceiving millions of people into coming to Canada and ruining their lives and this is wrong.<br /> <br /> Canadians have been conditioned to think a specific towards immigration and multiculturalism and you can see it here on Vive. Notice how they are quick to shout racism and avoid the issues altogether. And when they do attempt to discuss the issues their arguments are very weak and base solely on assumption and emotion and little on foresight and reason.<br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= The Saint] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= The Saint] [QUOTE BY= badsector] Tell ya what... since it's your topic, you prove that immigration is bad for Canada.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Here's a site for you to check out: notcanada.com. Read everything there and then go to the links page and go to those sites as well.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> You almost wonder how many times we have to repeat ourselves for it to sink in. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> We should expect such behaviour from them. Canadians have been bombarded for over 30 years of official Orwellian style government propaganda with tacit co-operation from the media when it comes to immigration that they block out anything that criticizes our immigration policy or the symptoms that show our policy is failing. Canadians have been brainwashed with slogans such as “diversity is our strength,” “we are a nation of immigrants,” “multiculturalism is our identity,” “…to seek a better life,” and “Canadians are a tolerant and accommodating people” that Canadians have become conditioned to say, act, think, and behave in a specific way. All those slogans are grandiose and designed to flatter us into submitting to official government policy as well as to silence critics and condition Canadians to ignore the critics. <br /> <br /> Canadians have been so successfully brainwashed that their behaviour is predictable. We can expect them to assume a critic is racist and bigoted first before they even bother to listen to him let alone consider his arguments We can see that here Vive.<br /> <br /> Since Canadians have been conditioned to accept our immigration policy without question, anything that supports our current immigration policy is accepted as fact even though these “facts” may be unsupportable and dubious. For instance Canadians are told that we need more immigrants because we have an aging population. All you have to do is say that and everyone agrees with you. However if you say that there is nothing to fully support that, which is true by the way, as well as suggest alternatives you have to explain yourself fully and then there is no guarantee that what you said is understood if it hasn’t been passed off as racist thinking. I am reminded of Noam Chomsky speaking of the state of American media. He said, and I am paraphrasing, that you can say that Iraq is a leading terrorist state and everyone accepts it without question however if you say that the U.S. is the leading terrorist state then you have to fully explain yourself while being called an anti-American. In other words the system is designed to condition people to think a specific way and to demonize the critics and that is the current state on discussing Canadian immigration policy.<br /> <br /> You and I, et al. are like the child you said that the Emperor has no clothes. Go to notcanada.com and watch the clip of the erstwhile immigration minister Joe Volpe being interviewed for a CTV news report. Joe Volpe’s behaviour is typically Canadian. The reporter shows Joe Volpe the notcanada.com site and Volpe chooses to ignore it and he says that he only wants “good things” said about Canada to potential immigrants. Apparently he doesn’t care about facts or that he is deceiving millions of people into coming to Canada and ruining their lives and this is wrong.<br /> <br /> Canadians have been conditioned to think a specific towards immigration and multiculturalism and you can see it here on Vive. Notice how they are quick to shout racism and avoid the issues altogether. And when they do attempt to discuss the issues their arguments are very weak and base solely on assumption and emotion and little on foresight and reason.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Are they worth fighting for then? If even otherwise intelligent people can be rendered stupid? That may be harsh but I really do find it demoralizing how people can be programmed by just about anyone with the will and means to do it.<br /> <br /> I also find it comfusing (maybe I shouldn't) that the polls are always AGAINST immigration unless they are of the dubious rushed kind yet on Vive if people oppose immigration they have certainly shut up. When this issue first came up over and year and a half ago there were many people voicing opinions in our favour.<br /> <br /> Where did they all go? If the polls are any indication they should be at least a small majority if not a big one, but I guess many on Vive live in smaller rural areas that are less affected??<br />

[Perturbed]

News: Guess Which Country Has The Following Laws About Immigrants <br /> <br /> 1. If you migrate to this county, you must speak the native language. <br /> 2. You have to be a professional or an investor. No unskilled workers allowed.<br /> 3. There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools, no special ballots for elections, all government business will be conducted in our language.<br /> 4. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are here.<br /> 5. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.<br /> 6. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food stamps, no health care, or other government assistance programs.<br /> 7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40, 000 times the daily minimum wage.<br /> 8. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed waterfront property. That is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.<br /> 9. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no waving a foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our president or his policies, if you do you will be sent home.<br /> 10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be hunted down and sent straight to jail. <br /> <br /> Which country can boast this level of self defense against foreigners?<br /> <br /> You guessed it--MEXICO. <br /> <br />

[Reverend Blair]

[QUOTE]I was talking about the past.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Saskatchewan has been a province for over a hundred years now. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Development of course always continues in places, but Canada was already built before a large scale influx in immigration from non-British sources.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> That depends what part of Canada you are talking about. Winnipeg, where I live now, was very much built by the Metis and immigrants from Eastern Europe. The same goes for Saskatchewan.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]I assume you mean in many prairie towns many people might have a Polish or Ukrainian name. Some might even still speak Ukrainian. That's nice. However, in the past they were expected the assimilate culturally and there is no reason why we can't demand the same thing today in return for the privelege of immigrating here.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> My great grandparents moved here yet, two generations later, my father never learned English until he started school. My cousins, who stayed in that area, still speak Ukrainian and attend a Greek Orthodox church where the services are in Ukrainian. We all still practice aspects of Ukrainian culture, even those of us who moved away from there and had strong non-Ukrainian influences from other parts of our families. <br /> <br /> You want people to assimilate immediately when they come here in 2006, but that has not been the case throughout our history. Assimilation takes a long time and the culture itself is changed by those doing the assimilating. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]That expectation could be made easily by cutting off funding of cultural festivals and making the demand publicly in a democratic and peaceful manner in the Canadian tradition.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Funny...the culture that I was just talking about survived for decades without official multiculturalism. In fact, it was very likely stronger and less prone to being diluted because there was little co-operation between the cultural communities.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]That said I wouldn't be surprised the socialists you hang around would think I were nuts.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Okay, now you have to visit two bars in too small prairie towns. After you've recovered from making your first assertion, you can go down the road a bit and accuse them of being socialists. That one will likely take you longer to recover from. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE]Saskatchewan has been a province for over a hundred years now.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Yes but immigrants were not treated the same way in the past.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]That depends what part of Canada you are talking about. Winnipeg, where I live now, was very much built by the Metis and immigrants from Eastern Europe. The same goes for Saskatchewan.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> There were no British out there? I'm sure they established a presence before the Eastern European immigration started, no?<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]My great grandparents moved here yet, two generations later, my father never learned English until he started school. My cousins, who stayed in that area, still speak Ukrainian and attend a Greek Orthodox church where the services are in Ukrainian. We all still practice aspects of Ukrainian culture, even those of us who moved away from there and had strong non-Ukrainian influences from other parts of our families. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> That is interesting and I have heard the same thing from my fahter who has travelled out west.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]You want people to assimilate immediately when they come here in 2006, but that has not been the case throughout our history. Assimilation takes a long time and the culture itself is changed by those doing the assimilating. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> NO NO NO. I don't expect people to assimilate right away. I expect that their children or grandchildren will.<br /> <br /> I disagree that assimilation changes the culture by those doing the assimalating all the time. If you take in small numbers they can be absorbed pretty easily. Currently we take way too many from everywhere so they change the culture.<br /> <br /> YES even the Ukrainians may have changed the culture a bit while assimilating but they didn't change the dominant culture.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Funny...the culture that I was just talking about survived for decades without official multiculturalism. In fact, it was very likely stronger and less prone to being diluted because there was little co-operation between the cultural communities.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Well in the past the government discouraged cultural preservation but as you mentioned it still happened until people broke off their colonies.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]That said I wouldn't be surprised the socialists you hang around would think I were nuts.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Okay, now you have to visit two bars in too small prairie towns. After you've recovered from making your first assertion, you can go down the road a bit and accuse them of being socialists. That one will likely take you longer to recover from. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Fine. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'>

[Reverend Blair]

[QUOTE]Yes but immigrants were not treated the same way in the past.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Sure they were, the racism was just more open. Even the anti-immigrant rhetoric was much the same. "We take too many." "Their families are too big." "They all depend on charity/welfare." "Their culture is too different." "Their religion is dangerous." "They use too many spices." "They'll destroy this country."<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]There were no British out there? I'm sure they established a presence before the Eastern European immigration started, no?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> They descendants of the British are a decided minority in rural areas and haven't been a majority in the cities for a long time. Even the United Empire Loyalists who moved west tend to be those of German extraction who backed the wrong horse in the US war of independence. There are a fair number of Irish and Scottish, but they tended to be the ones who were decidedly not British.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]NO NO NO. I don't expect people to assimilate right away. I expect that their children or grandchildren will.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Their children and grandchildren do, at least to the same extent that previous immigrants did.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]I disagree that assimilation changes the culture by those doing the assimalating all the time. If you take in small numbers they can be absorbed pretty easily. Currently we take way too many from everywhere so they change the culture.<br /> <br /> YES even the Ukrainians may have changed the culture a bit while assimilating but they didn't change the dominant culture.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> They did change the culture though...how much depends on where you go, but I can Ukrainian food (or a reasonble facsimilie) at Safeway.<br /> <br /> The immigrants coming in now aren't changing the dominant culture any more. They may actually be changing it less.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Well in the past the government discouraged cultural preservation but as you mentioned it still happened until people broke off their colonies.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> It happened well after people left their colonies, and continues to this day. My nieces' and nephews' generation is a clear example of that. They are inheriting the same traditions that we grew up with, our parents grew up with, and their parents grew up with.<br /> <br /> The biggest difference is that there is more tolerance for those traditions and traditions from other cultures are also observed because people marry outside of their own little group and are exposed to other things. That's the real Canadian culture, and the British are only a small part of the mix.<br /> <br /> By the way, the most authentic British Pub in Winnipeg serves (really good) Indian food, no mushy peas or bangers and mash on the menu, so Canada isn't the only place experiencing this. We celebrate it, which makes us a better country. <br /> <br /> I don't think you are promoting British culture as much as an anachronistic worldview based on folk tales passed down through the generations. <br />

[Roy_Whyte]

[QUOTE]Which country can boast this level of self defense against foreigners?<br /> <br /> You guessed it--MEXICO. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> And Mexico is a third world country - your point is what?<br /> <br /> Rev - used to live in Dauphin Manitoba - Ukrainian capital of Canada. Great town, great people and great culture. What makes a nation great to us, clearly angers others.<br />

[Reverend Blair]

My wife used to live there too, Roy. Her mother still has a cottage out there. It's the perfect example of the kind of community I'm talking about. <br /> <br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE]Sure they were, the racism was just more open. Even the anti-immigrant rhetoric was much the same. "We take too many." "Their families are too big." "They all depend on charity/welfare." "Their culture is too different." "Their religion is dangerous." "They use too many spices." "They'll destroy this country."[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I think I wasn't clear about what I meant. Yes you are right there was discrimination but I mean they were expected to try and assimilate, whereas now they are paid to promote their own culture or were and they are told to even keep their former culture if they don't even want to.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]They descendants of the British are a decided minority in rural areas and haven't been a majority in the cities for a long time.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Well I assume immigation has somethign to do with that.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Even the United Empire Loyalists who moved west tend to be those of German extraction who backed the wrong horse in the US war of independence. There are a fair number of Irish and Scottish, but they tended to be the ones who were decidedly not British.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Really. Interesting. They evolved into a culture of their own eventually IMO. Grudgingly? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]The immigrants coming in now aren't changing the dominant culture any more. They may actually be changing it less.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> You mean because they simply keep their own?? This said the sheer numbers I can assure you have displaced the culture that existed in many parts of the downtown of cities like Toronto where I live....though the people they displaced I'm sure went elsewhere.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]By the way, the most authentic British Pub in Winnipeg serves (really good) Indian food, no mushy peas or bangers and mash on the menu, so Canada isn't the only place experiencing this. We celebrate it, which makes us a better country. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Oh but that is consistent with British imperialism. The British loved to sample from their colonial subjects and were eager to trade around the world. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]I don't think you are promoting British culture as much as an anachronistic worldview based on folk tales passed down through the generations. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I think that we view culture differently. I emphasize lanaguage and the various groups you spoke of did create a distinct dialect of English which I view as Canadian. Its origins are British as English is the language the British used to expand around the world in their colonies--including Canada. Canada has a British legal and political system, used to have a British symbol on its flag and still has a British monarch that gets ignored.<br /> <br /> I think language is fundamental to culture and that is one thing that all of the groups you mention have in common to a large degree. They may not all feel attached to Canada or to the English language but I think they have distinct regional dialects of English without even realizing it. They don't even realize they have a culture of their own. Culture is viewed so differently by so many people that I think much gets ignored.<br /> <br /> I think I am trying to promote a Canadian culture, not a British culture. I just think that it is worth noting the origin of so much of our culture.