[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] [QUOTE BY= The Saint]Would that be in a Quebec as a province of Canada or in the future independent Quebec? Remember, an independent Quebec will be much smaller territorially. So what's this about oil and electricity? You can keep your culture. No one wants that.[/QUOTE]<br /> Ahh so first it's "Québec is doomed without oil, they will want ours" then it's "Quebec is ours, it's got oil". Your entire rant is pathetic...[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> If Quebec has oil, it isn't that much. Quite frankly, by the time Quebec manages to separate, if it does, oil may be a fuel of the past anyway. Quebec on its own would bebullied into allowing some U.S. petroleum company to take it all anyway....dreams of a communist Quebec will die at the hands of the Anglosphere. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= gaulois] [QUOTE BY= The Saint] <br /> I never said I despised Quebecers but I know how separatists like to put words in people's mouths and blow comments out of proportion. They also take them out of context as well. It's all part of the fraud and deceit of separatists.<br /> ...<br /> <br /> P.S. Go ahead and circulate this to all of Quebec to prove further how much we hate Quebec. Just remember to delete this and the first paragraph.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Does not look much better either. <br /> <br /> "separatists like to put words in people's mouths and blow comments out of proportion." Are they really alone at doing this???[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> I think his scenario is quite plausible.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= The Saint] [QUOTE BY= michou] The saint, why as a Canadian would you wish to 'stay married' to Québécers when you despise them so much for their laziness, their hanging on on Canada's coattails, for their constant whining, their french speaking culture so different from yours etc.... I'm sure you could spend a day adding to this list. <br /> What's the point except for the fact that you fear Canada would disintegrate without Québec to support your lackluster culture and Canada's loosely bound federation ? Oh and please don't respond by saying it is out of goodwill and love towards Québec. We've heard that one too. <br /> I personally think it is because without Québec, Canada will just become another 'American' state to the north ? You write Québec would not have survived integration to the U.S. Well guess what ? It already did while Canada is already assimilated to the United States in more ways than one, two of which are language and culture. The next logical step is full economic and territorial annexation. The North American Anschluss is just around the bend and Harper is just the man to bring it about. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I never said I despised Quebecers but I know how separatists like to put words in people's mouths and blow comments out of proportion. They also take them out of context as well. It's all part of the fraud and deceit of separatists.<br /> <br /> But that aside I think it might be in Canada's best interest to allow a separatist win and let the province go. Canada will legally annex northern Quebec leaving a much smaller Quebec territorially. Political stability will be more assured for Canada. There will be economic hardships for both Canada and Quebec but I don't think it will be as hard for Canada as it will Quebec. And Canada will come out of it sooner than Quebec will. Quebec will have to scramble to establish a currency. It may use the Canadian dollar for a while but Quebec nationalist pride will want to replace it ASAP. Quebec will want its own currency but it will be too weak to finance Quebec's debt and it will hurt social programs Quebecers were accustomed to while as a province of Canada so it will adopt the American dollar. Quebec will then have no control of its fiscal policy making it an economic colony of the U.S. Meanwhile the relocation of companies to outside of Quebec will continue. It may not be to Canada but it will leave Quebec nonetheless. Jobs will be lost and professionals will leave. Quebec will undergo an accelerated brain drain. Quebec will then have to sell itself as a market of cheap labour to attract foreign investment. This isn't to say that it will be a smooth ride for Canadians but Canada, with it resources, will be able to bear it much easier than a smaller Quebec. Quebec will, in the long run, stabilize but it will take it a long time, generations perhaps, to regain what it has now as a province of Canada and there is no guarantee that will achieve the same living standard let alone surpass it. But it is possible that Quebec will become a third world state in North America. But cheer up. You'll have a seat at the UN just like you always wanted. Meanwhile Quebec will be easier to court in its economically weakened state. Canada may be able to negotiate Quebec's return to confederation but Quebec will not be in much of a bargaining position. Quebec will be smaller, it will sign the constitution, and will be easier to pacify. Canada will no longer be controlled with idle threats of separation. The other option is to endure uncertain economic times and hope for an uncertain future or be devoured by the Americans.<br /> <br /> So, yeah, go ahead and separate. Have fun. Mind you I don't care to endure the hardships that will follow and I don't think most Quebecers do either. I think we have a good thing going so why stop now? But if separation is the only thing that will pacify Quebec, the way one pacifies an enemy, then maybe it is something Canada should consider.<br /> <br /> P.S. Go ahead and circulate this to all of Quebec to prove further how much we hate Quebec. Just remember to delete this and the first paragraph.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> I agree with almost everything you say. If Quebec separated it would become an inefficient, communist banana republic and half it spopulation would immigrate to Canada.<br /> <br /> Perhaps we should adopt the ideas of Peter Brimelow (a British immigrant to Canada, then American) and kick Quebec out if they fail to vote themselves out. We have the clout and language to do better without them and our energies would be better spent doing so.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br />

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= The Saint] [QUOTE BY= michou]You sure know a lot of things, much more than any living or dead politician I’ve ever known I'm sure. Someone to make PET proud. You’ve got it all mapped out and to the minute detail I bet. Ever thought about going into sainted politics ? <br /> <br /> I thought I was over-the-top, but you win hands down. No contest. <i></i>[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Since you don’t fully address anything I said I will conclude that the scenario I painted is one you can imagine but do not care to talk about. That’s to be expected. Separatists only talk about the imagined future glory of an independent Quebec. To speak otherwise, even if it is in the best interests of Quebecers, is pure heresy.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> The reason I do not wish to address your scenario point by point is because it is just that, a scenario. I could only respond back with another scenario. Québec independence will eventually happen. In which circumstances ? No one can really know, not even a saint (Québec threw religion out on its head decades ago by the way and it has been working diligently at creating a laic society. It also wishes to do the same with Canada's constitutional monarchy in order to favor a democratic republic.)<br /> <br /> Another reason for not going on about your points, is that I've discussed them enough already and I've got 600 some posts to prove it. <br /> <br /> As for Québécers only speaking of Québec's future glory, one must be pretty ignorant of Québec politics to make such a statement. With the recent addition of Québec Solidaire, there are now 4 major political parties in Québec. Québec Solidaire has added the option of Québec sovereignty to its program, the ADQ continues promoting what it calls '" Québec autonomy" and everyone already knows the PQ allegiance to independence. That makes three parties out of four which support to some extent Québec sovereignty, autonomy or full-fledged independence. You are mistaken in putting all Québécers in the same separatist handbasket or in making a pretense that only those Québécers who adhere to Canada's federated vision can think logically and realistically about their future. That's pretty much a one-sided and limited view of Québec and Québécers you have. <br /> <br /> As for that Québec culture no one wants, I believe you meant, that Québec culture which no Canadian wants. It is true for Canada but it isn't at all how it is being played out in the rest of the world (and this is not about some future glory but the current one). Maybe you were not aware (as most Canadians aren't), but Québec culture has been exploding on the international scene for decades now. But since you probably do not know a thing about Québec culture, I won't expect you to respond to it. <br /> Contrary to Québécers, Canadians have chosen the lazy man's approach to their culture, becoming spectators of someone else's instead of investing into their own. It is a sad day when you hear Canadians modeling their own opinions on American ones, discarding what they do not know or understand as being irrelevant. <br /> <br />

[michou]

Perturbed, the North American anglosphere will not survive. Give it a century at best. Within a few generations, Hispanics will outnumber english-speaking Americans (WASP) two to one and English Canada will have given way to a mishmash of multiculturalists. Will Britain save the day ? I doubt it. Those days of British glory are long gone already and its heyday of imperialist aggressions and conquests will have been buried in history books by then. <br /> <br /> But it is just a scenario...a plausible one but a scenario all the same. Who knows if a few hundred years from now, North Americans will have freely or forcibly chosen mandarin or cantonese as their language of choice ... if there remains a planet to sustain us humans that is.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE] No one can really know, not even a saint (Québec threw religion out on its head decades ago by the way and it has been working diligently at creating a laic society. It also wishes to do the same with Canada's constitutional monarchy in order to favor a democratic republic.)[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Every western nation threw religion on its heads--at least compared to before.....a secular republic is what France has and look at the problems they are having. It isn't a bed of roses.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]As for that Québec culture no one wants, I believe you meant, that Québec culture which no Canadian wants. It is true for Canada but it isn't at all how it is being played out in the rest of the world (and this is not about some future glory but the current one). Maybe you were not aware (as most Canadians aren't), but Québec culture has been exploding on the international scene for decades now. But since you probably do not know a thing about Québec culture, I won't expect you to respond to it.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Many Canadians in Toronto went to see The Barbarian Invasions by Denys Arcand. I assume this is the kind of thing you mean. I'm sure there is more but Canadians are interested in Quebec to a point. That said, Quebec culture is not exploding at all. Only American popular culture has exploded onto the scene for decades now. Most never think of Quebec so come on.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> Contrary to Québécers, Canadians have chosen the lazy man's approach to their culture, becoming spectators of someone else's instead of investing into their own. It is a sad day when you hear Canadians modeling their own opinions on American ones, discarding what they do not know or understand as being irrelevant. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Well we speak English so I wouldn't be so smug. Quebecers are not a resilient as you think you are. If you had to resist an imperialist force that spoke your language you would fare no better.<br /> <br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE]Perturbed, the North American anglosphere will not survive. Give it a century at best. Within a few generations, Hispanics will outnumber english-speaking Americans (WASP) two to one[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Something has to give. You are basing this population projection on current statistics but politics changes all the time--especially with a fresh crop of politicians from a younger generation. Americans will like have a civil war before that happen--some think it has already started with the protests.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]and English Canada will have given way to a mishmash of multiculturalists. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Multiculturalism was never popular and the government is literally on the cusp of not being able to keep a straight face about it. We'll see what happens. It could be ugly but something has to give. When there ceases to be anyone who speaks English to teach English in schools, the hilarity of the situation will hit home.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Will Britain save the day ? I doubt it. Those days of British glory are long gone already and its heyday of imperialist aggressions and conquests will have been buried in history books by then.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Their birth rate is low too, but they a nationalist movement. They aren't interested in more imperialism and neither is Canada or America (when it comes to colonialism) unless there was empty space. No one wants to have to put up with subjugated peoples anymore. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]But it is just a scenario...a plausible one but a scenario all the same. Who knows if a few hundred years from now, North Americans will have freely or forcibly chosen mandarin or cantonese as their language of choice ... if there remains a planet to sustain us humans that is.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I've heard many say they think this way, but with the weapons available today and the lack of sustainability of our economy, I think we'll see armageddon before that if we're not lucky.<br /> <br /> I mean, if NATO works together, there is no way China could win a conventional war unless the west is weakened via diversity to the point it can't defend itself. China cannot even fight a conventional war with America--America with all of NATO and France, other nations involved, China couldn't win. They also would not win a nuclear war, although they could the life miserable for part of the west....maybe bioweapons but I doubt that would be very easy to pull off.<br /> <br /> No conventional advantage or even balance with even American (for at least 15 or 20 years) and no nuclear advantage....and this is in an era of a weakened, old, lazy western world.

[The Saint]

Discussions on Quebec separatism is a frustrating affair because it rarely, if ever achieves, anything. Canadians do not want to entertain the possibility of Quebec separating and Quebecers do not want to fathom the notion that their adventure in independence may in fact be a stupid one wrought with hardship and a failure at realizing the imagined glory that awaited them. It is akin to going on a hunt for buried treasure only to find sand were gold was expected, a sad discovery after the loss of many a crewman, capital and time. At least you found a nice beach to tan on and that’s all that will be left of Quebec once it leaves confederation. It will be reduced to a piece of real estate along the St. Lawrence with a lot of Quebecois and Haitian Creole speakers and that has to be worth something. Celine Dion and Cirque du Soleil will brighten your lives while you ponder the unforeseen event of a job loss because the company you worked at for over ten years has decided to relocate outside of Quebec after independence. Oh wait. Celine Dion and Cirque du Soleil are in Las Vegas now. Ah who needs ‘em anyways. They believe in a string and united Canada and therefore are not true Quebecers.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Samuel] [QUOTE BY= The Saint]I guess Quebec will want a share of Canada's oil seeing how it is such a precious commodity nowadays and Quebec has none of it.[/QUOTE]<br /> Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are finding plenty of oil in the Gaspé region. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> A more accurate way to say this is that they found some oil in the Gaspe region and not “plenty of oil” so don’t exaggerate. I know exaggerations are all you have going for you, being a have not province and all, but deal with it. From what I read about it they consider it small compared to Western Canada standards and such a modest sum will run out sooner that you care to admit. But it won’t be an issue after independence because the Gaspe won’t be part of Quebec anymore so you better use it all up before you separate. That is if you’re that smart.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Samuel] So, we have oil, gold and other precious metals, lumber, plenty of electricity[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> Your choice of words is important here as well. It is correct to say “we have” because as a province of Canada you do have these things. But after separation you will not “have” these things but will have “had” these things. These will mostly go to the natives living in the north who will secede from Quebec. So the natives will have “gold and other precious metals, lumber” and “plenty of electricity” to sell to Quebec. As for the oil thing I would keep dreaming.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Samuel] and a distinct culture to promote.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> If distinct culture means to you Celine Dion, Cirque du Soleil, Mitsou, la Fureur, Ding et Dong, and a back water colonial-French dialect that the French are embarrassed about then you better promote it because people really need to be sold to if you want them to buy that crap.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] As for that Québec culture no one wants, I believe you meant, that Québec culture which no Canadian wants. It is true for Canada but it isn't at all how it is being played out in the rest of the world (and this is not about some future glory but the current one). Maybe you were not aware (as most Canadians aren't), but Québec culture has been exploding on the international scene for decades now. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I point you to the above statement I made and I also challenge you to give me some examples. Tell me how, using examples, is Quebec culture exploding internationally? I have to admit I am not aware, as most Canadians aren’t and Americans for that matter, and Germans, and Mexicans, and Italians, and Brazilians, and South Asians, and Chinese, and…Australians and Japanese…Chileans, South Africans, in fact all of Africa and South America and pretty much everyone outside of Quebec, of Quebec culture EXPLODING on the international scene.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] Contrary to Québécers, Canadians have chosen the lazy man's approach to their culture, becoming spectators of someone else's instead of investing into their own. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Oh really. I guess all those Canadian government grants to promote Quebec culture wasn’t really needed but accepted nonetheless. So michou, aside from language, what makes Quebec culture so different? Bear in mind. If Quebec entertainers want to succeed outside of Quebec they have to speak and sing in English.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] It is a sad day when you hear Canadians modeling their own opinions on American ones, discarding what they do not know or understand as being irrelevant. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Yeah it is a sad day. That’s why I admired Lucien Bouchard when he went to the Americans assuring them that Quebec is their friend and wants to stay in NAFTA. In a twist on the John B.L. Soule quote (often credited to Horace Greely) Bouchard said “Go south, young Quebecer.” Now Bouchard is against full independence for the province. Seems like Quebec politics is being run by a bunch of used car salesmen.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] With the recent addition of Québec Solidaire, there are now 4 major political parties in Québec. Québec Solidaire has added the option of Québec sovereignty to its program…That makes three parties out of four which support to some extent Québec sovereignty, autonomy or full-fledged independence. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> A bunch of used car salesmen. Quebec nationalism is a hot market in Quebec and everyone wants a piece of the action. If I’m not mistaken a Chilean refugee, showing his respect for Canada, ran and won as a PQ candidate. You want to get elected then wave the fleuer de lis. Quebecers vote for nationalist parties but vote no in referendums. That’s why Quebec nationalists have to lie, exaggerate, and deceive to win.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] Perturbed, the North American anglosphere will not survive. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> But French will right michou? The fact that Quebec had to enact French language laws already shows that French is in danger. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] English Canada will have given way to a mishmash of multiculturalists. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> The one thing we can agree on. <br /> <br /> I love the double standard and deluded reasoning displayed by michou and Samuel. It makes my cry “Oh Mordecai Richeler! How you are missed so much.” With everything said nothing was achieved. Canadians do want to imagine a country without Quebec and people like michou and Samuel continue to delude themselves. Lying to ourselves helps us sleep at night. I say let Quebec go. The province has become that alcoholic relative who refuses to admit he has a drinking problem and no amount of intervention will convince him otherwise. Some people only learn by going through the hardship and heartache that could have been avoided had they listened to reason. So I say let Quebec go. It seems to be the only way we will learn.<br />

[gaulois]

Trôle

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= The Saint] Discussions on Quebec separatism is a frustrating affair because it rarely, if ever achieves, anything. Canadians do not want to entertain the possibility of Quebec separating and Quebecers do not want to fathom the notion that their adventure in independence may in fact be a stupid one wrought with hardship and a failure at realizing the imagined glory that awaited them. It is akin to going on a hunt for buried treasure only to find sand were gold was expected, a sad discovery after the loss of many a crewman, capital and time. At least you found a nice beach to tan on and that’s all that will be left of Quebec once it leaves confederation. It will be reduced to a piece of real estate along the St. Lawrence with a lot of Quebecois and Haitian Creole speakers and that has to be worth something. Celine Dion and Cirque du Soleil will brighten your lives while you ponder the unforeseen event of a job loss because the company you worked at for over ten years has decided to relocate outside of Quebec after independence. Oh wait. Celine Dion and Cirque du Soleil are in Las Vegas now. Ah who needs ‘em anyways. They believe in a string and united Canada and therefore are not true Quebecers.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Samuel] [QUOTE BY= The Saint]I guess Quebec will want a share of Canada's oil seeing how it is such a precious commodity nowadays and Quebec has none of it.[/QUOTE]<br /> Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are finding plenty of oil in the Gaspé region. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> A more accurate way to say this is that they found some oil in the Gaspe region and not “plenty of oil” so don’t exaggerate. I know exaggerations are all you have going for you, being a have not province and all, but deal with it. From what I read about it they consider it small compared to Western Canada standards and such a modest sum will run out sooner that you care to admit. But it won’t be an issue after independence because the Gaspe won’t be part of Quebec anymore so you better use it all up before you separate. That is if you’re that smart.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Samuel] So, we have oil, gold and other precious metals, lumber, plenty of electricity[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> Your choice of words is important here as well. It is correct to say “we have” because as a province of Canada you do have these things. But after separation you will not “have” these things but will have “had” these things. These will mostly go to the natives living in the north who will secede from Quebec. So the natives will have “gold and other precious metals, lumber” and “plenty of electricity” to sell to Quebec. As for the oil thing I would keep dreaming.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Samuel] and a distinct culture to promote.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> If distinct culture means to you Celine Dion, Cirque du Soleil, Mitsou, la Fureur, Ding et Dong, and a back water colonial-French dialect that the French are embarrassed about then you better promote it because people really need to be sold to if you want them to buy that crap.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] As for that Québec culture no one wants, I believe you meant, that Québec culture which no Canadian wants. It is true for Canada but it isn't at all how it is being played out in the rest of the world (and this is not about some future glory but the current one). Maybe you were not aware (as most Canadians aren't), but Québec culture has been exploding on the international scene for decades now. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I point you to the above statement I made and I also challenge you to give me some examples. Tell me how, using examples, is Quebec culture exploding internationally? I have to admit I am not aware, as most Canadians aren’t and Americans for that matter, and Germans, and Mexicans, and Italians, and Brazilians, and South Asians, and Chinese, and…Australians and Japanese…Chileans, South Africans, in fact all of Africa and South America and pretty much everyone outside of Quebec, of Quebec culture EXPLODING on the international scene.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] Contrary to Québécers, Canadians have chosen the lazy man's approach to their culture, becoming spectators of someone else's instead of investing into their own. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Oh really. I guess all those Canadian government grants to promote Quebec culture wasn’t really needed but accepted nonetheless. So michou, aside from language, what makes Quebec culture so different? Bear in mind. If Quebec entertainers want to succeed outside of Quebec they have to speak and sing in English.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] It is a sad day when you hear Canadians modeling their own opinions on American ones, discarding what they do not know or understand as being irrelevant. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Yeah it is a sad day. That’s why I admired Lucien Bouchard when he went to the Americans assuring them that Quebec is their friend and wants to stay in NAFTA. In a twist on the John B.L. Soule quote (often credited to Horace Greely) Bouchard said “Go south, young Quebecer.” Now Bouchard is against full independence for the province. Seems like Quebec politics is being run by a bunch of used car salesmen.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] With the recent addition of Québec Solidaire, there are now 4 major political parties in Québec. Québec Solidaire has added the option of Québec sovereignty to its program…That makes three parties out of four which support to some extent Québec sovereignty, autonomy or full-fledged independence. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> A bunch of used car salesmen. Quebec nationalism is a hot market in Quebec and everyone wants a piece of the action. If I’m not mistaken a Chilean refugee, showing his respect for Canada, ran and won as a PQ candidate. You want to get elected then wave the fleuer de lis. Quebecers vote for nationalist parties but vote no in referendums. That’s why Quebec nationalists have to lie, exaggerate, and deceive to win.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] Perturbed, the North American anglosphere will not survive. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> But French will right michou? The fact that Quebec had to enact French language laws already shows that French is in danger. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] English Canada will have given way to a mishmash of multiculturalists. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> The one thing we can agree on. <br /> <br /> I love the double standard and deluded reasoning displayed by michou and Samuel. It makes my cry “Oh Mordecai Richeler! How you are missed so much.” With everything said nothing was achieved. Canadians do want to imagine a country without Quebec and people like michou and Samuel continue to delude themselves. Lying to ourselves helps us sleep at night. I say let Quebec go. The province has become that alcoholic relative who refuses to admit he has a drinking problem and no amount of intervention will convince him otherwise. Some people only learn by going through the hardship and heartache that could have been avoided had they listened to reason. So I say let Quebec go. It seems to be the only way we will learn.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> Very impressive, a second reply and rehash (full of factual errors btw) of everyone's comments. You're still foaming at the mouth though confirming what I keep repeating. The imperialist Quebec bashing hate mongering Anglo Canadian lives and can be found through comments all over the Internet.

[The Saint]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] Very impressive, a second reply and rehash (full of factual errors btw) of everyone's comments.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> Yeah. I guess it is full factual errors. Um, what are they by the way? I fail to see where you point them out in your reply.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Samuel]You're still foaming at the mouth though confirming what I keep repeating. The imperialist Quebec bashing hate mongering Anglo Canadian lives and can be found through comments all over the Internet.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I suppose. I have to admit that I have fallen for the trap Quebec-nationalists like you set to bait Canadians to respond to the lies, exaggerations, and half-truths perpetrated by separatists. When we do you then spin our replies and reactions as "Quebec bashing" and "hate mongering" when that is the reaction you were angling for all along. Even when we respond and react in reason and understanding it is still spun as "Quebec bashing" and "hate mongering." This is calculated to rile up separatist emotions in Quebecers who do not want to separate. So in the end Samuel you always win. It is like Quebec separatism itself. If you succeed and achieve your imagined glory then you say "See? See? Canada always stood in the way of Quebec’s destined glory." If you become a Puerto Rico of the north then you say "See? See? Look at what Canada has done to us." It's always Canada's fault. We just can't win with people like you and michou. That's why Quebec separatism will never go away. So I am saying what you want us to say: “time to boot the old nag already.” But I know you won’t be satisfied with this statement alone. Quebec never seems to be satisfied with anything. I am certain a future independent Quebec will become politically and possibly militarily aggressive towards Canada over territorial claims especially the northern lands that will be lost to Canada and the native population that lives there. So Canada can grant you official recognition of independence and you will still be a thorn in our side. Co-operation is the only rational solution but we all know Quebec separatists are not rational people and you can never win with those people.<br />

[Dino]

[QUOTE BY= The Saint]I suppose. I have to admit that I have fallen for the trap Quebec-nationalists like you set to bait Canadians to respond to the lies, exaggerations, and half-truths perpetrated by separatists. When we do you then spin our replies and reactions as "Quebec bashing" and "hate mongering" when that is the reaction you were angling for all along. Even when we respond and react in reason and understanding it is still spun as "Quebec bashing" and "hate mongering." This is calculated to rile up separatist emotions in Quebecers who do not want to separate. So in the end Samuel you always win. It is like Quebec separatism itself. If you succeed and achieve your imagined glory then you say "See? See? Canada always stood in the way of Quebec’s destined glory." If you become a Puerto Rico of the north then you say "See? See? Look at what Canada has done to us." It's always Canada's fault. We just can't win with people like you and michou. That's why Quebec separatism will never go away. So I am saying what you want us to say: “time to boot the old nag already.” But I know you won’t be satisfied with this statement alone. Quebec never seems to be satisfied with anything. I am certain a future independent Quebec will become politically and possibly militarily aggressive towards Canada over territorial claims especially the northern lands that will be lost to Canada and the native population that lives there. So Canada can grant you official recognition of independence and you will still be a thorn in our side. Co-operation is the only rational solution but we all know Quebec separatists are not rational people and you can never win with those people.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I must say I agree with you. For example when Stephen Harper agreed on letting Quebec have a voice at UNESCO the press asked Gilles Duceppe if this would hurt Quebec's chances at separating and he was like no of course not it will encourage Quebecers into wanting to have the real thing but if Stephen Harper had said no to unesco Gilles Duceppe would be in Quebec rallying Quebecers into supporting separation because Quebec doesn't have a voice at UNESCO. <br /> <br /> They always try to have it both ways. And for Quebec separation going on and on and on I personally think it will go no where kind of like it's been for the last 42 years. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> A real separation movement has a leader with the courage to be able to ask it's people if they want a separate country. In the referendums on 1980 and 1995 both leaders weren't able to do it. And if you look at Quebec now there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of people supporting separation most certainly not enough to win. It just goes on and on and the only person who in my opinion is speaking some sense is Mario Dumont! It's time for Quebec to be in the constitution; that will happen when Quebecers realize we don't have to destroy the federation just to keep them happy.

[michou]

<br /> Thanks for wanting to keep us happy dino but Québécers aren't pets and there's no need really.<br /> <br /> As for Mario Dumont speaking sense, !!!! <br /> We should instead wish for Dumont that come next provincial elections, voters put him out of his political misery for good.

[gaulois]

Dino: I thought you were on the left side of things. Dumont is the neocon Fraser Institute type easily impressed by theories of free markets. Not too far from Mulroney either.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= The Saint] Discussions on Quebec separatism is a frustrating affair because it rarely, if ever achieves, anything. Canadians do not want to entertain the possibility of Quebec separating and Quebecers do not want to fathom the notion that their adventure in independence may in fact be a stupid one wrought with hardship and a failure at realizing the imagined glory that awaited them. It is akin to going on a hunt for buried treasure only to find sand were gold was expected, a sad discovery after the loss of many a crewman, capital and time. At least you found a nice beach to tan on and that’s all that will be left of Quebec once it leaves confederation. It will be reduced to a piece of real estate along the St. Lawrence with a lot of Quebecois and Haitian Creole speakers and that has to be worth something. Celine Dion and Cirque du Soleil will brighten your lives while you ponder the unforeseen event of a job loss because the company you worked at for over ten years has decided to relocate outside of Quebec after independence. Oh wait. Celine Dion and Cirque du Soleil are in Las Vegas now. Ah who needs ‘em anyways. They believe in a string and united Canada and therefore are not true Quebecers.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Samuel] [QUOTE BY= The Saint]I guess Quebec will want a share of Canada's oil seeing how it is such a precious commodity nowadays and Quebec has none of it.[/QUOTE]<br /> Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are finding plenty of oil in the Gaspé region. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> A more accurate way to say this is that they found some oil in the Gaspe region and not “plenty of oil” so don’t exaggerate. I know exaggerations are all you have going for you, being a have not province and all, but deal with it. From what I read about it they consider it small compared to Western Canada standards and such a modest sum will run out sooner that you care to admit. But it won’t be an issue after independence because the Gaspe won’t be part of Quebec anymore so you better use it all up before you separate. That is if you’re that smart.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Samuel] So, we have oil, gold and other precious metals, lumber, plenty of electricity[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> Your choice of words is important here as well. It is correct to say “we have” because as a province of Canada you do have these things. But after separation you will not “have” these things but will have “had” these things. These will mostly go to the natives living in the north who will secede from Quebec. So the natives will have “gold and other precious metals, lumber” and “plenty of electricity” to sell to Quebec. As for the oil thing I would keep dreaming.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Samuel] and a distinct culture to promote.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> If distinct culture means to you Celine Dion, Cirque du Soleil, Mitsou, la Fureur, Ding et Dong, and a back water colonial-French dialect that the French are embarrassed about then you better promote it because people really need to be sold to if you want them to buy that crap.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] As for that Québec culture no one wants, I believe you meant, that Québec culture which no Canadian wants. It is true for Canada but it isn't at all how it is being played out in the rest of the world (and this is not about some future glory but the current one). Maybe you were not aware (as most Canadians aren't), but Québec culture has been exploding on the international scene for decades now. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I point you to the above statement I made and I also challenge you to give me some examples. Tell me how, using examples, is Quebec culture exploding internationally? I have to admit I am not aware, as most Canadians aren’t and Americans for that matter, and Germans, and Mexicans, and Italians, and Brazilians, and South Asians, and Chinese, and…Australians and Japanese…Chileans, South Africans, in fact all of Africa and South America and pretty much everyone outside of Quebec, of Quebec culture EXPLODING on the international scene.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] Contrary to Québécers, Canadians have chosen the lazy man's approach to their culture, becoming spectators of someone else's instead of investing into their own. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Oh really. I guess all those Canadian government grants to promote Quebec culture wasn’t really needed but accepted nonetheless. So michou, aside from language, what makes Quebec culture so different? Bear in mind. If Quebec entertainers want to succeed outside of Quebec they have to speak and sing in English.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] It is a sad day when you hear Canadians modeling their own opinions on American ones, discarding what they do not know or understand as being irrelevant. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Yeah it is a sad day. That’s why I admired Lucien Bouchard when he went to the Americans assuring them that Quebec is their friend and wants to stay in NAFTA. In a twist on the John B.L. Soule quote (often credited to Horace Greely) Bouchard said “Go south, young Quebecer.” Now Bouchard is against full independence for the province. Seems like Quebec politics is being run by a bunch of used car salesmen.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] With the recent addition of Québec Solidaire, there are now 4 major political parties in Québec. Québec Solidaire has added the option of Québec sovereignty to its program…That makes three parties out of four which support to some extent Québec sovereignty, autonomy or full-fledged independence. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> A bunch of used car salesmen. Quebec nationalism is a hot market in Quebec and everyone wants a piece of the action. If I’m not mistaken a Chilean refugee, showing his respect for Canada, ran and won as a PQ candidate. You want to get elected then wave the fleuer de lis. Quebecers vote for nationalist parties but vote no in referendums. That’s why Quebec nationalists have to lie, exaggerate, and deceive to win.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] Perturbed, the North American anglosphere will not survive. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> But French will right michou? The fact that Quebec had to enact French language laws already shows that French is in danger. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou] English Canada will have given way to a mishmash of multiculturalists. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> The one thing we can agree on. <br /> <br /> I love the double standard and deluded reasoning displayed by michou and Samuel. It makes my cry “Oh Mordecai Richeler! How you are missed so much.” With everything said nothing was achieved. Canadians do want to imagine a country without Quebec and people like michou and Samuel continue to delude themselves. Lying to ourselves helps us sleep at night. I say let Quebec go. The province has become that alcoholic relative who refuses to admit he has a drinking problem and no amount of intervention will convince him otherwise. Some people only learn by going through the hardship and heartache that could have been avoided had they listened to reason. So I say let Quebec go. It seems to be the only way we will learn.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Wow. I agree with what you say. Ouch. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>