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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:19 am
 


[QUOTE BY= civiltech] There MUST be regulation. We have to get around the notion that a 2 tier system means an American system. <br />[/QUOTE] <br />Civiltech: Would this Regulation be made in Canada and yet subject to NAFTA too? Kory's NAFTA related viewpoint seems most valid. Looking south of the border, my experience is that Regulation is something that the private sector buys like anything else. <br /> <br />I am still looking forward to hear from you what does Canadian sovereinty really mean. Why don't you publish a story on this topic?



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:32 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= whelan costen] 'My experience in Health Care has been in Capital construction and infrastructure,...and the money wasted there is unbelievable!' <br /> <br />I think the above statement is probably a symptom of a bigger problem which is that government contracts are not open to transparent tenders, they are often done in secret without proper documentation, bidding is fixed or favoured , and contracts end up in the hands of a friend of a friend. A good book to read on this is 'On The Take' by Stevie Cameron. <br /> <br />We can no longer accept government contracts, using our money to fund their friends, often at inflated costs. I don't believe the system itself is the problem, but the process is deeply flawed, with hidden agendas and the procurement process is not open and fair, if it was Canadians would get the best deal, both cost and service, for their tax dollars. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />I'm not sure if that is what it's like in Alberta, but in Ontario tenders are open to qualified companies. There are a huge number of rules and regs defining fair play. The waste comes from what is requested by the government. Not how the contract is completed by a private sector company. That is stipulated by their tender.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:39 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= civiltech] The waste comes from what is requested by the government. Not how the contract is completed by a private sector company. That is stipulated by their tender.[/QUOTE] <br />You seem to have a very pure view of the world! Do you not think the contract tender gets loaded up by the special lobby groups (whether from the Right or from the Left) ahead of time?



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:52 pm
 


Civiltech, please respond to my above comments and questions.



Kory Yamashita

"What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." - Oliver Wendell Holmes


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:05 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= Kory Yamashita] Civiltech, please respond to my above comments and questions. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />No, I told you. You need experience. The same thing was told to me at your point in life, and I didn't like it either! Nobody likes being told that. I'm sorry you can't accept it. (I didn't either..<img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'> ) <br /> <br />I ain't trying to belittle you. I was in your position before. <br /> <br />I don't want to write pages and pages trying to describe it. <br /> <br />I will resopnd to NAFTA and privatization. I like that point. It is one that deserves discussion. Is that the only response to thriving 2 tier in other countries? <br /> <br />


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:08 pm
 


<br /> <br />The Greatest Canadian is playing on TV and Tommy Douglas is on tonight. I gotta go watch and educate myself on this man! No more on Vive for a little while. <br /> <br />(Can you believe that Avril L. was in the 30's on the list, and Glen Gould was ranked 55?.....unbelievable!) <br /> <br />WE all know the Sir Issac Brock was the Greatest Canadian! <br />


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:09 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= gaulois] [QUOTE BY= civiltech] The waste comes from what is requested by the government. Not how the contract is completed by a private sector company. That is stipulated by their tender.[/QUOTE] <br />You seem to have a very pure view of the world! Do you not think the contract tender gets loaded up by the special lobby groups (whether from the Right or from the Left) ahead of time?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />how? I used to be an Owner's rep. I don't recall any lobbiest groups. I will concede that I'm in the dark and want to know what you mean. Please explain this to me.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:08 pm
 


Civiltech, it's irresponsible for you to avoid this discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't youthful views supposed to be pure and idealistic? The converse of this is that someone with more "real world" experience is more likely to have bought into our current system. Thus, to imagine a functioning system outside of our own is much more difficult. <br /> <br />Another point - a small child is smarter than an old man. Less wise, perhaps, but more able to adapt mentally (and physically too) to his surroundings. This is obvious in the child's ability to learn complete languages quickly and to learn the basic laws of nature with no reference with which to compare the phenomena he experiences. And early childhood educators will back me up on this one. <br /> <br />Now, my father often tells me what you just did - that my views are those of youth and that he too believed much of what I now believe. And of course he says that he later learned that things aren't necessarily so, because his predictions didn't come true. And he is also a professional in a field closely related to civil engineering - Planning. <br /> <br />However, he is also the one who recommended this book to me. And Jane Jacobs is among the most highly respected Canadian urban planners and city architects. Her writings have transformed modern Canadian cities and in this particular book she dispells some accepted truths that have been thoughtlessly passed on through generations of planners and engineers. <br /> <br />Now, depending on how long you've been a practicing engineer, it is entirely possible that you have made use of one of these "truths" in some of your own designs. Or perhaps you worked on a project that used such design concepts. <br /> <br />This book directly affects your line of work. It also puts our society's current trends in a broad context and compares them with other empires of the past. And in fact, the Jacobs suggests ways in which we can avert the impending decline of our modern empire - that of free-market capitalism. <br /> <br />Now, if you still refuse to address my concerns, at least show some of that wisdom that old folks <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> like yourself are known to display and go read the book. THEN come back here and tell me it was a load of crap and why.



Kory Yamashita

"What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." - Oliver Wendell Holmes


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:17 pm
 


Kory, I agree with you that old folks, often parents, tell the young to wait and see, and that their ideas are not as great as they think; some of it comes from becoming cynical through life beating you down. But there are those who hold youthful ideas throughout life, they are the dreamers, the thinkers and the inventors, they think outside the box, outside of what is traditionally viewed as unacceptable or just won't work. <br /> <br />Sometimes ideas that haven't worked previously, did not because the delivery was wrong not the idea. So I encourage you to keep thinking differently, because we need new fresh ideas. Tommy Douglas is a good example of a person who was told, it can't work, he proved them wrong! There are plenty of examples in Canadian History, the railroad is another good example, of a dream which became a reality. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>



"aaaah and the whisper of thousands of tiny voices became a mighty deafening roar and they called it 'freedom'!"' Canadians Acting Humanely at home & everywhere


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:33 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= Kory Yamashita] Civiltech, it's irresponsible for you to avoid this discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't youthful views supposed to be pure and idealistic? The converse of this is that someone with more "real world" experience is more likely to have bought into our current system. Thus, to imagine a functioning system outside of our own is much more difficult. <br /> <br />Another point - a small child is smarter than an old man. Less wise, perhaps, but more able to adapt mentally (and physically too) to his surroundings. This is obvious in the child's ability to learn complete languages quickly and to learn the basic laws of nature with no reference with which to compare the phenomena he experiences. And early childhood educators will back me up on this one. <br /> <br />Now, my father often tells me what you just did - that my views are those of youth and that he too believed much of what I now believe. And of course he says that he later learned that things aren't necessarily so, because his predictions didn't come true. And he is also a professional in a field closely related to civil engineering - Planning. <br /> <br />However, he is also the one who recommended this book to me. And Jane Jacobs is among the most highly respected Canadian urban planners and city architects. Her writings have transformed modern Canadian cities and in this particular book she dispells some accepted truths that have been thoughtlessly passed on through generations of planners and engineers. <br /> <br />Now, depending on how long you've been a practicing engineer, it is entirely possible that you have made use of one of these "truths" in some of your own designs. Or perhaps you worked on a project that used such design concepts. <br /> <br />This book directly affects your line of work. It also puts our society's current trends in a broad context and compares them with other empires of the past. And in fact, the Jacobs suggests ways in which we can avert the impending decline of our modern empire - that of free-market capitalism. <br /> <br />Now, if you still refuse to address my concerns, at least show some of that wisdom that old folks <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> like yourself are known to display and go read the book. THEN come back here and tell me it was a load of crap and why.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Kory, <br /> <br />Your dad is a wise man when it comes to learning. (For a planner...don't get me started on building officials!! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'> ) <br /> <br />You can't learn from a thread on the internet. You have to experience. Corny as that sounds. And don't think someone like me has learned everything. That question already tips your hat at your age! Listen, real world experience, especially in your field will give you insights you can't possibly understand now! Just trust me on that one point. Don't worry, my dad chuckled at my compassion, and zeal when I was in School. It doesn't diapear...it evolves. I will however pick up the book you have recommended. I may not disagree with concepts in it. <br /> <br />By the way, I am a constructor. Not a designer. (I like lot's of money, not the image of being great! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'> )


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:57 pm
 


Your posts have raised some valid points, civiltech. <br /> <br />A democratic nation should function on the basis of delivering the best value for citizens, both current and future. <br /> <br />The determination of 'best value' must be devoid of political ideology. Determining 'best value' may at times times on the various toes of those who perceive themselves to be on the 'right' or 'left' but, so be it. <br /> <br />The problem is that those who identify themselves by an 'ism' generally develop tunnel vision, and tend to trip a lot along their paths ( and generally blame others for these falls). <br /> <br />I read the U.K. document with interest, realizing in the process the rather embarassing fact that I haven't previously had any real knowledge of national medical systems outside of our own and that of the U.S. <br /> <br />I'll admit, I don't care how a service is delivered, so long as it delivers the best value to citizens and leaves none out in the cold who haven't chosen to be there. <br /> <br />So whether any service is delivered by the public sector, a public/private mix or the private sector is in my view irrelevant, so long as it meets the goals I indicated. <br /> <br />A couple of things caught my eye in the document: <br /> <br />[QUOTE] The number of practising GPs in each county is subject to collective agreements negotiated between the counties and the GP section of the Danish Medical Association. The result is an even distribution across the population.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Canada may not have this type of agreement with medical associations. However, I suspect, perhaps wrongly, that some similar situation exists for a number of self-styled 'professions' in Canada, whether legislatively or in unspoken agreement between government, the university interests and the 'profession', which effectively limits the number of association members available on the free market at any given time. Assuming this is true, this effectively renders the 'professional association' a trade union. <br /> <br />Now the reason given for this state of affairs may be some 'protection of the public interest'. However, in reality the agreement serves to limit the number of 'professionals' in a given category available on the free market, and thus artificially inflate the income of the overall group. <br /> <br />I believe in the free market. If the Canadian market requires 5000 physicians, accountants, lawyers, engineers, whatever, be graduated each year and individuals with the ability, as measured by by real rather than self-serving artificial university standards, to acquire the necessary skills are ready and willing, then facilities should be in place to encourage the same. The consumer, or government with the consumer's money and on their behalf, should not be required to support a standard of living that 'professionals' believe is their due solely on the basis of an artificial structure that encourages the same. <br /> <br />As with any other product in the free market, the high quality practitioners would be in demand, and have an income appropriate to that demand. A glut on the market might encourage some to seek employment elsewhere, e.g., rural communities. Essentially, these 'professionals' would like most need to work for the going rate and in locations where a demand exists. <br /> <br />The problem with artificially inflating the income of certain professions is that this tends to attract individuals that while able to pony up the club entry fees, e.g., ability to memorize, are not desirable club members, rather than solely those who are suited to the profession and confident in their ability to make a good living in a competitive environment. <br /> <br />So, I think that if we're talking privatization, we also need to be talking about applying free market principles to all of those who wish to participate in the game. <br /> <br />The other point I noted was: <br /> <br />[QUOTE]However, DRG payment is to be the same, and as a result, so far, no private providers have signed contracts all complaining that payments would not cover costs.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />The implication is that the private sector can not provide the services of the public sector at the same cost. This doesn't strike me as promising. <br /> <br />Anyway, I am grateful for your post and the reference. <br /> <br />In an earlier post, you said: <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Unfortunately public sector, though it rules out profit, also rules out the competitive spirit. I just left the public sector and returned to the private dejected with the way things are run.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I disagree that the public sector 'rules out the competitive spirit'. What it does (like many unionized environments) rule out the concept of receiving recognition, e.g., promotion, that one might receive in the private sector based on contribution, proven ability and potential. <br /> <br />I'll agree that the public sector probably spends greater resources than the private to produce an acceptable product. However, this must be balanced out against the consequences of increasing profit by cutting corners, as is a risk in private sector endeavours. <br /> <br />Regardless, the bottom line is leadership (the mantra in both the private and public sectors, though forgotten quickly when convenient in the public). People tend to 'follow the the leader'. <br /> <br />I'm not sure what point you've been attempting to make to Kory. I'd hazard a guess you're in your late twenties or early to mid thirties, with a long way to go yourself. I'm guessing this because you seem to be in the 'now I understand how things are in the real world' phase. <br /> <br />Realistically speaking, one's view of 'how things are in the real world' are based on the 'real world' we've individually experienced. I'm sure your's, mine, etc, 'real world' differs substantially, based on the lives we've lived and the experiences we've had to date. <br /> <br />Fact is, the only 'real world' any of us have to live in is the one in which we starve if there's no food, freeze if there's no heat, etc. The rest is an artificial construct created over the centuries which we now inhabit, and choose to accept to the extent we're comfortable with. When most cease to be comfortable, the construct changes, as the Romanovs, Bourbons, etc. learned the hard way. We co-exist with the construct at hand based on our own wants and needs, e.g., actions and choices of those who like lots of money may differ from those who don't. <br /> <br />Kory's points are well taken. How things are is not necessarily how he believes they should be. <br /> <br />Your points are also well taken. How the things might be desired to be is not necessarily as you (and I) have experienced. <br /> <br />There's no right or wrong, or any 'listen grasshopper' to it. Just two points of view. <br /> <br />The lessons you've learned are not necessarily what Kory should learn, or perhaps what you yourself should have learned. <br /> <br />Word to the wise though, I've noticed patronization generally doesn't play well to the audience. <br /> <br />As I mentioned, I've found your posts quite valuable. Being 'civil' is to my mind a good thing.



"When we are in the middle of the paradigm, it is hard to imagine any other paradigm" (Adam Smith).


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:21 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= civiltech] I don't recall any lobbiest groups. I will concede that I'm in the dark and want to know what you mean. Please explain this to me.[/QUOTE] <br />Bureaucracies whether private or public generate great gobs of paperwork when they go through tender work. The militaries are quite famous for that and will refer you to the helicopters, the submarine job or an air traffic control system in the domain of public safety. Some of this or in fact most of this is not a pretty sight. I will leave to your imagination what happens when bureaucrats under political pressure are in charge for establishing tender requirements or evaluating them and dealing with Equipment Vendors, service providers, consultants, etc... This is how the real world of bureaucracies operate, private or public. Many talented people simply refuse to work in such an environment.



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:59 am
 


That's right Whelan. <br /> <br /> Kory I hope you never allow someone to box your thinking. <br /> <br /> I want Civiltech to know what I have already expressed more than once on this site and that is that I feel safer knowing Kory Yamashita lives on planet earth. Thank God he thinks the way he does and is only 20 because when you and I are needing an old age home Civiltech his generous and humanitarian heart will be in power. I believe Kory and all of us are here at exactly the right time to have the experiences we need to carry into the future. If we believe that after Kory has lived as many years as you and will only know what you know about life how advanced are we going to be in another 20 years? He will be building a different world than we live in now or at the very least I sure hope he will and that if it's up to him it will be one hell of a lot better than what we have now. <br /> <br /> Life experience can change the way a person thinks and views certain issues, but it cannot be allowed to change the fundamental spirit required to live your best life. And don't you let it Kory! <br /> <br /> If this felt like a lecture, it was, no apologies.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:52 am
 


Any body can have a good idea and advanced age is not a guarantee of wisdom. If it was we wouldn't have the world wide catastrophe that we face today. Who will deny that the oldsters have been and still are running all the dominant human organizations on the planet. For all their worldly experience the oldsters still babble on about sunrises and sunsets and all sorts of other concepts that don't exist. They can't wrap their vast experience around the fact that saying it is so does not make it so. Mental pollution is what you get with advanced experience. I have made 53 trips around the sun, I have billions of miles of experiences. If you are not learning then you are not paying attention.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:58 am
 


4Canada - you are too, too kind! <br /> <br />Civiltech, Calumny - you both made good points: that I don't know everything. Heck, I don't even know enough to run in an election yet. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]I'll agree that the public sector probably spends greater resources than the private to produce an acceptable product. However, this must be balanced out against the consequences of increasing profit by cutting corners, as is a risk in private sector endeavours. <br /> <br />Civiltech, the above quote from Calumny sort of sums up our differing views on health care, I think. In my mind, the basic infrastructure of society should not be placed at risk because of profit-driven cost-cutting. As long as there is motivation to cut costs, there will always be mental health patients living in dumpsters. <br /> <br />And a quick aside here to address a claim a while back that our health care may not be in poor condition: shortly after Gordon Campbell took office in BC, my brother and his girlfriend were waiting at a bus stop when a woman in a hospital gown showed up. Because of health care cuts, she had been released from the hospital while drugged up (presumably on pain killers or something... I think she had just undergone surgery). She dropped to the pavement unconscious, and the paramedics said the only reason she lived was because my brother's girlfriend happened to have a cell phone on her and called 911. So yes, our health care system is in drastic need of some TLC. <br /> <br />Calumny, what is my point?? Well I wrote out a long rant, but I don't think it showed up for some reason. So I'll replace it with this: <br /> <br />If our only motivation to achieve efficiency is one of greed or a lust for power, we are not a civilized species and consequently deserve no control over the destiny of other species. <br /> <br />I do believe it's possible to do better.



Kory Yamashita

"What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." - Oliver Wendell Holmes


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