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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:12 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Well, this thread is getting far too esoteric for me, but I'll add a couple of comments. I'm not sure what you mean by Russia, first of all. However, under communism women had far higher educational levels than they do in the United States. In Canada it WAS higher but that has radically changed in the last twenty years. Today, of course, under the patriarchal capitalism they have adopted you can find many an engineer working in a brothel. <br /> One measure of 'sexism' is domestic violence which is far higher in canada than it is in continental western europe. Another would be pay disparity which is also far closer in most european countries. Scandinavian politicians and professionals have far more women as a percentage (although Canada is catching up-well, not the politicians). <br /> While I share the utopian vision you project, it is highly unlikely under our current form of government. If you live in Toronto then you know well the economic disparities between neighbourhoods, the problems minorities are having with police, etc. Under that utopian vision there are also problems such as was found when a certain sect of islam sought to use their native domestic disputes which did not recognize women as equals. Here another 'culture' if you will, had to intervene. <br /> Finally, I stand by my earlier point. There will always be people saying nasty things, we need not listen. My argument has been that Zundel's impact was negligible, neo-nazi's in the west, what there were, were not concerned with semitism, which has few footprints out west. I'm from the east where there are not enough jews to even be anti semitic. <br /> Finally, it is one thing to tell a person to shut up or marginalize them, it is another to cut off their means of transmission, yet it's another to rob them of their freedom and the right to a fair travel. Once those things are done the judgement becomes not an issue of intoleration but one of injustice. The state should not be in the position where it is expected to dole out justice, yet is unjust itself. <br /> [/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />I would argue that although western Europe today and the Soviet Union in the past had more income inequality, I think it could be said that the males of those societies were much more sexist. I mean, even a female professor from the former Soviet Union was expected often to be good around the house. <br />I do know from everyone I've talked to who has lived in Russia and Ukraine that it is, at least now, a pretty bad place to be a woman. <br /> <br />I have also heard domestic violence is very high in Russia. <br /> <br />In Canada, I think the example of well-educated women working in brothels is more an economic phenomena than a social attitude towards women. Women can work in brothels, whereas men with PhDs frequently work in restaurants in Canada.



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:57 pm
 


Neo-Nazis are dangerous people. Many Canadians don't know how destructive they are because we don't have the same amount of Neo-Nazis here as there are in Europe and other countries like Australia and the US. In the UK, Neo-Nazis have been elected to the London Assembly. In Germany, the descendant of the Nazi party itself has won seats in the Parliament of Saxony. In the Netherlands, Belgium, Australia, and France, Neo-Nazis have acheived electoral success in the national Parliaments. We cannot allow this to occur in Canada. If the intolerance preached by Zundel becomes mainstream as it has in nations similar to Canada, I would be very dissappointed, but not shocked. <br /> <br />If I could have my way, there would be no intolerance in the world. I cannot, but I can try and make sure Canada is as tolerant as it can be. If enough Chinese people come to Canada that they make a significant minority of the population, why not make Chinese an official language (mind you, I'm talking 20%-25% of Canadians speak Chinese as a first language). English and French wouldn't dissappear; nations can have more than two official languages and still function (look at Switzerland, India, South Africa, et cetera). <br /> <br />The problem is that people are afraid to loose power. English and French speakers mainly want immigrants to assimilate into their language. This is unfair because English and French speakrs themselves came here and they got to keep their language (they even tried to make all the Aboriginal people learn these langauges, and much of that worked out). If China really does become the economic powerhouse its predicted to become, then what could be the harm of English and French speakers learning at least some Chinese in school? It would be a great advantage over other western nations. <br /> <br />Now is not the time to make Chinese an official language, and it probably never will be because immigrants assimilate linguaistically over the generations. Unless we open our immigration rules up to more people and ensure they are not kept in the ghettos, but actually contribute to our society with the skills they bring, then maybe this will one day be the case, but that won't be for centuries. <br /> <br />Maybe its best that english and french remain the only official languages of this country, maybe immigrants should assimilate linguaistically, but that is far from cultural assimilation. We should celebrate each others' cultures as opposed to just tolerating them. Keeping immigrants confined to the ghettos will not last forever; we've already seen the growth of ethnoburbs (suburbs dominated by non-english or non-french cultures), especially surrounding Toronto and Vancouver. <br /> <br />In the past, there were whole farming commuinites with different languages and cultures - Ukrainian, Jewish, Russian and German vilages dotted the countryside out west and French and Scots Gaelic communities survive to this day in the east. The assimilation tactics of governments in the mid 20th century saw most of these communities wiped out (with the notable exception of communities like the Mennonites and Hutterites); the idea of multiculturalism has seen the regrowth of communities like these except now they are Chinese, Hindi, and Italian communities. <br /> <br />We have also witnessed the regrowth of many traditional aboriginal cultures that were almost destroyed by the residential schooling system. With their own education now in their own hands, this regrowth will become more distinct in the future, especially among large groups like the Inuit, Cree, and Ojibwe. <br /> <br />If trends continue, we may soon live in a real multicultural society where different people interact on a daily basis as equals. Immigrants cannot remain a second class of citizen. <br /> <br />Now going back to Zundel, this man is not a pacifist nor an innocent. He has violated immigration laws and has threatened an entire race of people with extinction. He promotes violence, and no matter if you're a Neo-Nazi, a Wahabi Muslim, or a Revolutionary Communist, the promotion of violence cannot be tolerated in our society. It doesn't matter how far fetched these calls to arms seem, they cannot be allowed to exist. We need to take Neo-Nazis as seriously as we take Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups, because thats what Neo-Nazis are, terrorists. <br /> <br />I would never advocate that all anti-immigration activists should be kicked out of the country, so long as they remain peaceful and do not call for violence against immigrants. Freedom of Speech must be respected, but not when people abuse that freedom and call for violence.



"But I want to remind you: that you can lock up a mouse or a man but you can't lock up an idea." - Tommy Douglas


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:18 pm
 


I must admit that to learn about this issue I've read far more of Zundel's work than I care to. However, it was illuminating to see the propaganda machine at work. In none of his works does he espouse violence. In fact in much of his work he writes 'to' jews in deference to them and to warn them that not all out there "are moderates like me". <br /> The issue, like all criminal issues, judges both the accused and the accuser. There are several factors to consider. <br />1. Many of his earlier works describe 'zionist agendas' which under today's conditions can almost be said to have been prophetic. (see "whatreallyhappened.com" for many articles on the zionist lobby in Washington) <br />2. If Zundel's works were actually illuminated, instead of hushed up as is the case it would dismiss all serious interest in his work since he also claims that UFO's stay in a base in Antartica. <br />3. Zundel is now considered a 'political prisoner' by groups who otherwise would avoid him like a plague (myself included). This is because he was denied immigrant status by the government (he's been here since the 50's). He was denied immigrant status even though he fit all the criteria, lived here for decades, even ran for liberal leadership against Trudeau in the sixties. Although there are plenty of former nazi's in canada, Zundel, a self described pacifist, was denied because of his suspected associations (which normally would be grounds for a human rights complaint yet the supreme court simply refused to hear any more arguments from him without reason). <br />4. Because of the lobby of media companies Zundel could not be held as a normal criminal because the court found that 'propagating falsehoods through media' was not a crime. This so that newspapers and media news could continue free of obstructions. <br />5. The issue is broader than just a criminal trial since Zundel has been designated a terrorist even though he or his associates have never been involved in terrorist activities. <br />6. Zundel's life is not monolithic, in addition to his clearly wrong views about the holocaust, he was instrumental in exposing the liberal party as a racist organization in the sixties. One liberal leader (I won't say which) made the comment that Germans should be 'seen and not heard'. This helped drag Canada to accept much of its current 'multicultural status'. <br /> When the state acts so arbitrarily, the concern is of course that it's a slippery slope. Our judicial system is based partly on tradition and partly on precedence. If somebody writes something 'we don't like', what is next? Do we really adopt the extremism that even some here espouse that all forms of political protest are treasonable? This is especially relevant since it is easy for the media to spin people's views (people here want him imprisoned without ever even reading his works, which means the government knows that most people will stay on board even without reading the originals-in other words will just take the government's word for it). <br /> In conclusion, my main point is that keeping him locked up and getting him his many allies serves the opposite purpose and simply advertises him more than normally. As far as the whole neo nazi arguments go, again, if there's more neo nazism in europe, which I could argue with as well, however, locking up people for expressions will not stem that tide, there are far many more issues as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:45 pm
 


Just one final note, do some research on neo-nazi's on the internet and you will find it's incidence largely overblown. <br /> This issue is also very interesting, and the whole issue of holocaust denial is quite interesting. Particularly the whole question of genocide, a term coined in 1944. Check out www.othervoices.org/2.1/churchill/denial.html What is most interesting is that Canada, and the US were instrumental in changing the definition of genocide to eliminate 'cultural genocide', specifically the reference to 'slow death actions'. Can you guess why?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:25 am
 


[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Just one final note, do some research on neo-nazi's on the internet and you will find it's incidence largely overblown. <br /> This issue is also very interesting, and the whole issue of holocaust denial is quite interesting. Particularly the whole question of genocide, a term coined in 1944. Check out www.othervoices.org/2.1/churchill/denial.html What is most interesting is that Canada, and the US were instrumental in changing the definition of genocide to eliminate 'cultural genocide', specifically the reference to 'slow death actions'. Can you guess why?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />So Canada could get the slow-death treatment? Interestingly enough, Canada seems to be much more Canadian than it was 10 or 15 year ago. It seems that economics and politics has not been in lockstep with Canada's social evolution. <br /> <br />Tell me if I guessed right.....it was James Laxer who made the assertion that socially and culturally Canada has moved farther away, defying economics: <br /> <br /><a href="http://www.jameslaxer.com/newnation.htm">here</a>



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:37 am
 


I thought it was pretty obvious, you're way off. The answer is that both our countries have indiginous populations which were (and are) being genocidally eradicated. Slow death measures against a reservation include not granting them access to investment to build up resource extraction (read the Indian Act), allow corporations to plunder all the land around their territory-and even within their territory by claiming not to have the financial resources to police industry (think Grassy Narrows and Abitibi Consolidated). With no resources and basically no hope for the future its not a far stretch to expect the majority of the population to leave or kill themselves. It is so effective that dictators around the world as well as Israel have adopted the same policies toward their 'indiginous populations' (check out the Israeli 'roadmap' to peace which divides all Palestinian towns into essentially small reservations isolated from one another).


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:57 am
 


[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] It is so effective that dictators around the world as well as Israel have adopted the same policies toward their 'indiginous populations' (check out the Israeli 'roadmap' to peace which divides all Palestinian towns into essentially small reservations isolated from one another). [/QUOTE] <br />***off the main thread topic**** <br />I can't help but notice how applicable this is to FHQs, the Second Nation. You forgot to mention how effective too is throwing a bureaucracy of political cronies that contributes further divisions while claiming improved integration. The crony will however sometimes turn around and byte back when they realize they have been manipulated or the community gets overly irritated over the abuse and/or the incompetence.



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:51 am
 


[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] I thought it was pretty obvious, you're way off. The answer is that both our countries have indiginous populations which were (and are) being genocidally eradicated. Slow death measures against a reservation include not granting them access to investment to build up resource extraction (read the Indian Act), allow corporations to plunder all the land around their territory-and even within their territory by claiming not to have the financial resources to police industry (think Grassy Narrows and Abitibi Consolidated). With no resources and basically no hope for the future its not a far stretch to expect the majority of the population to leave or kill themselves. It is so effective that dictators around the world as well as Israel have adopted the same policies toward their 'indiginous populations' (check out the Israeli 'roadmap' to peace which divides all Palestinian towns into essentially small reservations isolated from one another). [/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />I don't think that both countries have treated natives exactly the same way, but point taken. <br /> <br />In Canada, natives are not in any danger of completely disappearing. I realize that they often see the world through western eyes, but I'm much more sympathetic that some are to the western cause. Why? You can give them self-government, but would it really make a difference? They've seen the consumer goods westerners now have. They wouldn't be satisfied with living without them. Whenever there is a clash of two very different civilizations, one will often come out on top. I don't see why we should feel guilty about this.



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:28 am
 


Ok...try this one: <br /> <br />Plain and simple he is a racist. Racists should be locked up under laws that Canada has passed that refer to hate crimes, it is quite obvious that he is guilty of them. <br /> <br />It's nice to see Adrien, a white supremacist with two posts on the site promoting a racist...(sarcasm) <br /> <br />Where's the moderators reasoning behind leaving this post in the forums? <br /> <br />This is hate!



When an invasion can bring a country its freedom then unconsciousness is true happiness.





PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:35 am
 


Hate Crimes in Canada , you say! <br /> <br />Like the Reform Party trying to get elected into power, by promoting hatred against youth in Canada. <br /> <br />regardless of what Zundel say's <br /> <br />Nothing, absolutly nothing, gives him credibility more than his present imprisonment! <br />dennis baker


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:44 am
 


[QUOTE BY= dbaker] <br />Nothing, absolutly nothing, gives him credibility more than his present imprisonment! <br />dennis baker[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Credibility to who some prairie skinheads who will never walk a mile, do I care? No.



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:52 am
 


[QUOTE BY= robert_fisher] <br />Where's the moderators reasoning behind leaving this post in the forums? <br /> <br />This is hate! [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Mentioning a person's name is not hate. There is nothing in ethier of those posts you refer to that can be considered 'hate' under the criminal code of Canada. <br /> <br />The post, and this thread are here because everyone is entilted to their own opinion. Even if it is wrong. We don't moderate things because we disagree with them, we do it when it violates a specific set of guidelines. <br /> <br /> <br />That being said, when we disagree, we post. <br /> <br />This man is a cro-magnon pig. The sooner he leaves my country, the better off we will be. Anything that keeps him in jail while he's working his way through the due process everyone is entitled to works for me. <br /> <br />It's exactally his kind of 'speech' that slowly builds hate toward any particular group. Drawing attention to it is a good thing. The more people see how minds like his work, the easier it will be to identify them and remove them in the future. <br />



Take the Kama Sutra. How many people died from the Kama Sutra as opposed to the Bible? - Frank Zappa





PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:53 am
 


do you not see, he's winning just by the hatred of your responce? If you arn't hateing what he hates, at least generating your hatred is beter than nothing. <br /> <br />Dennis Baker


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:01 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= dbaker] do you not see, he's winning just by the hatred of your responce? If you arn't hateing what he hates, at least generating your hatred is beter than nothing. <br /> <br />Dennis Baker[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />What hatred? I love everyone. He's a joke, that was my point and yes, he is wasting Vive's time and webspace with this pathetic conversation, so if that was his motive he is successful. <br /> <br />Then again I thought his goal was the elimination of all jews, blacks, homosexuals, and A-rabs... <br /> <br />He has no success. He will never generate anything. Except maybe a loving cell mate.



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:07 pm
 


What this shows is not Zundel's 'hatred', like I said, you obviously haven't read him and are just towing some propaganda line-THAT"S the problem. You don't understand that this judges US, not Zundel. If you want hate just listen to the tone of these remarks. Talk about intolerance. Of course here in Kitchener I know well that most of your remarks are not in the majority, even our local liberal MP resigned his nominated post because of the liberal treatment of the man. Unlike most of you, the people here are able to read his work and many see him as a hero because of his earlier works against racism in Canada. Most of course do not believe in the 'crazy' things he says about UFO's, but many who actually lived in Germany know very well about how government excesses can quickly escalate. Most of Zundel's theories also refer to Zionist plots, which actually make quite a bit of sense to me. This of course has nothing to do with jews, they have no more power over the Israeli government than muslims had over Saddam. <br /> Canadians have no right to claim anything about hatred, just look at what happens whenever natives try to exercise their rights. We get crazy ideas like the above who thinks that people that haven't got functioning sewage or running water have somehow become addicted to 'westernization'. Obviously you've never been to a reservation.


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