[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Most of Zundel's theories also refer to Zionist plots, which actually make quite a bit of sense to me. This of course has nothing to do with jews, they have no more power over the Israeli government than muslims had over Saddam. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />That is exactally the thin edge of the wedge that I'm talking about. <br /> <br />First there is talk of 'Elbonianists'. Then 'Elbonianist plots'. You can't disprove a conspriacy, because as soon as you do, you are an Elbonian conspirator and must be part of that Elbonian conspiracy. Later, people can't tell Elbonian from Elbonianist . . . <br /> <br />That is how hatred begins. Facts are facts. Let's stick to them. <br />

[Marcarc]

'Hatred' does not begin as a rational evaluation of a proposition that then escalates. In Germany anti semitism was extremely low between the two world wars even though jews (and of course many others) were fairly wealthy-partly because of their communal nature but many other things,and the poverty of the population was intense. When prejudice and 'hatred' and violence began was when it was propagandized by the government. It was a tool which they used for their own purposes. <br /> It is the government which is to be feared because they have the power. If a pacifist who talks about UFO's and racial plots and NEVER espouses violence can be held incommunicado as a terrorist then there is no limit. We know that most people here haven't even read a word of his yet are all for depriving somebody of ALL rights. That's intolerance. We saw the same thing during Oka, when Quebecers were throwing rocks at natives on the street. This is why I say that its better to talk about this stuff, please don't misunderstand this as anything to do with anti-semitism. Germans now know better than anybody what happens when government flexes its muscles, and don't underestimate this. The Ahar case, the RCMP raiding journalists homes, this is all the paranoid american stuff coming to canada and we should well be concerned. <br /> But here is where our priorities are screwed. Why let media get away with such a thing? Why in god's name would you not make it a law to broadcast lies? What reason apart from corporations covering their ass could justify not making it illegal to knowingly lie either online, in print, on the tv or the internet. That sounds like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. You do that then you say to Zundel 'here's what the law is'. Two days later he's out of here or else he's prosecuted and sentenced ACCORDING TO LAW. Simple as that. No more talk about 'hate' or tolerance or anything-just make it illegal for people to lie in media.

[Adrien]

I really believe that for many, what we call thoughts are just conditioned reflexes. Mr. Lesouris’s points of view are so dull and sound so official. He must be a spokesman for the government or some Jewish organisation. <br /> <br />And contradicting him too much is illegal! <br /> <br />I will try to be careful… <br /> <br />Zündel published “Did Six Million Really Die?". The question in this title is a valid subject of enquire, why is it offensive? The discipline of history, like any science, functions like this: <br /> <br />By <b>free</b> examination made by different people. <br /> <br />How many died at Hiroshima by the nuclear bomb is a complex question. Nobody sticks to a number elevated to certain truth. Some will suggest a number, others will say it was less or more. And nobody will go to jail. With the accumulation of data and publications, a consensus will be reached. But anytime with new researches, an author can break it, and reopen the debate. <br /> <br />Do you think this web site is disgusting? http://www.warbirdforum.com/hirodead.htm <br /> <br />Questioning the Holocaust is not denying reality, but refusing a system of belief without enquiry. <br /> <br />Hate laws are similar to the Holly Inquisition looking for heresy. Anything the inquisitor wish to eliminate, can be called heresy with the help of an appropriate sophistic. Hate will be used the same way. <br /> <br />We know that people died by the dozens of millions in Soviet Union, from 1917 to about 1950. Are we offended because sometimes it is said it was 20 millions, other times 30 and sometimes 60 millions? Are we offended that someone can freely ask how many? Shouldn’t we ask ourselves why we don’t hear about the Russian revolution as a Crime Against Humanity? <br />

[Marcarc]

I recently read an article that indicated that one of the problems with the holocaust are the so-called 'reverse holocaust deniers', namely the ones who want to elevate the jewish holocaust as being the ONLY holocaust, in fact equating jewishness with dealing with this tragedy. Of course we know that this wasn't the only holocaust before or since. It also presents problems for germans since part of the story is the absolute horror of it, the fact that it is unforgiveable. One of the reasons germans or other german war allies become deniers is simply because they are painted as simply 'evil', therefore the only way to recognize themselves as a valid culture is to deny what is negating their culture. In Canada we should be sympathetic to such a thing because, like fascism, we have zero power over our government, and we see 'apologists' all the time for our genocidal behaviour towards natives (which isn't just eradication of individuals but of a culture).

[lesouris]

I'm sorry to anyone who thinks I'm being a little intolerant of Mr. Zundel and his works, but for me (and to a lot more people) the Holocaust is a very sensitive issue. Like I said, I know survivors who have told me about the horrors, and I think some of us could do well by re-examining some of the facts about the Holocaust. <br /> <br />The whole theory of Zionist plots are insane rantings. Should people be allowed to say them? Well, that's where a balance needs to be found between absolute freedom of speech and a compassionate society. <br /> <br />I think that it is perfectly fine to say something like Israel is itself commiting genocide, but what you cannot say is that ALL Jews are responsible and support that genocide. I have Jewish frineds who admired Yassar Arafat and his struggle for a Palestinian state; they are sickened by what has happened in Israel. <br /> <br />The idea that an entire race and religion can be in on a huge conspiracy that they've been working on for thousands of years is racist, there's no other word for it. <br /> <br />I think that the Holocaust has been abused both by some extremist Zionists and by Neo-Nazis. These people have no respect for those who died and survived one of the most disgusting chapters in the history of the 20th Century (if not indeed, all of human history). <br /> <br />I'm all for accepting refugees from other countries, but as Rex Murphy (who I often disagree with) so aptly said, "If Ernst Zündel is a refugee, Daffy Duck is Albert Einstein... Some propositions are so ludicrous that they are a betrayal of common sense and human dignity if allowed a moment's oxygen." <br /> <br />Send him back to Germany; let him face trial in his own country.

[Marcarc]

Personally, your views mean nothing to me. I could care less about what you think. I really don't care about what Zundel or anyone else thinks. What I am arguing about is government brutality. The idea of arresting and holding people without charge, which is what is happening since the new terrorist bill. I can sympathize with those who lived through the holocaust, however, not so sympathetic to those who simply have friends who did. Experiences are not lived vicariously. Likewise, here in Waterloo I know many people who lived through the horrors of Nanking and the japanese genocide of chinese. There are many japanese who like to pretend that that didn't exist either, we don't lock them up, we publicize and educate the public. <br /> The world is full of hate, you don't fight it with hate, however, that is a personal decision and if people here want to lock up Quebec separatists I don't care, their perspectives mean nothing. It is the government which is the problem, and believe me, typing away here is the least I do. It is unfortunate that Mr.Zundel is now in the same category as Mr. Arar, however, liberty is liberty. Freedom of speech is not freedom of speech only for views you like. In nazi germany you could yell all you want so long as you spouted the party line, it is precisely because you disagree with somebody's thoughts that people should support Zundel's cause. Keep in mind I was on the opposite side of the fence until I got educated as to the story and it's specifics. I urge everybody to do the same, otherwise, like I used to do, you're just yelling 'the party line'.

[Calumny]

Zundel and his remarks are one issue. His current circumstances are another. <br /> <br />Assuming Adrian's information re: <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Ernst Züdel, an American citizen, is in a prison in Canada from about 2 years now. He has been a pacifist all his life, and hasn’t any criminal record. He hasn’t been charged with any crime, yet he is jailed under a law passed by the Parliament after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, which permits such a procedure against people suspected of being a danger to the security of the state. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />is entirely accurate (and I'm not googling around to find out.), I agree with Marcarc that this is a cause for concern. <br /> <br />It's easy to ignore what may be abuse of the law when it comes to those we may, for whatever reason, find despicable. This doesn't justify the abuse. Once you start stretching the law to fit a particular circumstance, it becomes easy to stretch it a bit further to fit another, and another, ad infinitum. <br /> <br />I have some difficulty with anyone being held without charge and specific proof to support the validity of that charge, particularly when the individual poses no obvious threat to society. <br /> <br />In terms of Zundel's influence on 'impressionable' minds, the only minds and emotions influenced will be those previously damaged through other circumstance. Healthy individuals would not pay much attention to Zundel. So, as Marcarc indicated, the Zundels actually in some respects serve as barometers as to the health of the overall society, in that in a healthy society the Zundels, if they existed, would be ignored. If there are some, or many, who latch onto these types of ideas, we have, as Marcarc indicated, a lot more to worry about than the Zundel's. <br /> <br />I tend to wonder why some are so obsessed with these numbers games if they're not trying to prove some greater point. However, if they feel some need to play them, without transgressing hate laws, there does not seem any justifiable reason under law to restrict their freedom, regardless of how we may view both them and their possible motives. <br /> <br />The fact that humans can apply assembly line techniques to the cessation of human life is something we need to acknowledge, if only to try to ensure that those who might do so never achieve the ability to do so.

[Guest]

I am not going to debate his issues! <br /> <br />This is Canada and he has the right to his opinion (period). <br /> <br />You and I are here beaking off, expresing our opinion. <br /> <br />You wish to excersise that right but deny others. <br /> <br />Free Zundel. <br /> <br />Dennis Baker

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= dbaker] I am not going to debate his issues! <br /> <br />This is Canada and he has the right to his opinion (period). <br /> <br />You and I are here beaking off, expresing our opinion. <br /> <br />You wish to excersise that right but deny others. <br /> <br />Free Zundel. <br /> <br />Dennis Baker[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />But about his ideas, are they really crazy, or is there a grain of truth? Never read any of it.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= Calumny] Zundel and his remarks are one issue. His current circumstances are another. <br /> <br />Assuming Adrian's information re: <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Ernst Züdel, an American citizen, is in a prison in Canada from about 2 years now. He has been a pacifist all his life, and hasn’t any criminal record. He hasn’t been charged with any crime, yet he is jailed under a law passed by the Parliament after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, which permits such a procedure against people suspected of being a danger to the security of the state. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />is entirely accurate (and I'm not googling around to find out.), I agree with Marcarc that this is a cause for concern.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />This information is not accurate. Zundel is not an American citizen, he is a German citizen. Is he a pacifist? That depends on how you define the term. He has not committed a violent act physically, but can anyone so blatantly racist really be a pacifist? <br /> <br />In the 1990's he was under investigation from the Human Rights Commission because of complaints made against him by Jewish organizations claiming he was violating our country's hate legislation. He fled to Tennessee. In 2003, the US sent him back to Canada because he was in violation of that country's immigration laws, but because he was outside of Canada for such a long time, his permanent resident status was revoked in Canada. The German ambassador asked Canada to hand Zundel over to them for trial in Germany for an alleged violation of that country's hate crime laws. Technically, he is now an illegal alien in Canada who is seeking refugee status. Holding him in detention while this claim is being processed is standard practise. <br /> <br />The question is now whether he qualifies as a refugee. Are Germany's laws inconsistant with the Canadian constitution? I would argue no, but others will have their own opinions. The only opinion that really matters though is that of the courts.

[lesouris]

In order for Zundel to prove that Germany's laws on hate crimes are inconsistant with the Canadian Constitution, and thereby entitle himself to refugee status, he would either have to prove that sections 318 and 319 of the Criminal Code of Canada are either unconstitutional themselves or that he falls under one of the defence categories that would exempt him form those laws. He would need to prove that his statements against Jews: <br /> <br />1. if he could prove they were true (this is an unlikely defence for him to use because of the enormity of the scope of his claims) <br />2. if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text (this may be hard to prove, especially because there is no religious text he could use to justify his stance) <br />3. if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true (this is the one he would most likely use, but the "reasonable grounds" part could be undermined by his belief in Nazi UFOs in the Antarctic) <br />4. if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada (this is an almost impossible defence for him) <br /> <br />His other option would be to claim these laws are unconstitutional, but that is unlikely because the Supreme Court has already ruled that these laws are constitutional.

[Marcarc]

Some of your facts are correct, however, your interpretation of them are not. He was out of canada for so long because of fears he was going to be arrested. He SHOULD be a canadian citizen, because the terms under which he was refused citizenship were unlawful-although convicted of no crime, because of his 'alleged associates', who were in fact people who bought his books. If that is the case then the authors of Catcher in the Rye and The Scarlet Diaries (I can't remember the exact name) should be arrested as their books have been implicated in far more crimes than Zundel's (I don't think any crimes have ever been attributed to his works because they are far too moderate for violent neo-nazi's). I know of people who have been in the country for one tenth the time he has who are now citizens. The idea that somebody who has lived here since the fifties and ran for public office is not a citizen is ludicrous. <br /> He is not being held because he is wanted in Germany, he is being held under bill C-36 because of his 'alleged ties' to neo nazi's, who are considered a terrorist group even though they've committed no terrorism in Canada (I'm not supporting them here, let me make that clear). Under bill C-36 the evidence which is held against him can be used WITHOUT HIS KNOWLEDGE OF IT, or even his lawyer's knowledge. Go read the transcripts, there are entire sections where the judge simply reads the evidence silently and refuses Zundel's request to view it. THIS is the problem. <br /> In fact the holding of somebody who is wanted on a charge in another country is pretty arbitrary in itself. There are so many laws and countries in the world that it would bankrupt our police force to try to follow them all. Quebec has a variation of the 'good samaritan' law of some states where people are obliged to help others. You don't see the Ontario police arresting people and shipping them to Quebec to be tried for it. <br /> One final point as far as the 'idea' of holding people who say hateful things go, even though that's not what we're talking about here, but it may have made some sense a long time ago. Today, as far as neo-nazi literature goes Zundel is only one among hundreds perhaps thousands now (I don't know, I haven't really checked up on that). As far as the internet goes, you can simply host your site is some third world backwater that has no extradition or telecommunications laws and say whatever you want. People can find it this stuff no problem, the way to deal with it is out in the open as we are doing now. <br /> As I've said before, our government has had plenty of opportunity to deal with him legally, he's been in court pretty much since 1980 or thereabouts. Don't be distracted by this red herring, the real problem is bill c - 36 as well as a country whose government won't make it a crime for the media to lie. <br />

[robert_fisher]

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] <br />Mentioning a person's name is not hate. There is nothing in ethier of those posts you refer to that can be considered 'hate' under the criminal code of Canada. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Fair enough. <br /> <br />I don't like where this is going. All I'll say is you can't defend a guy because he is a pacifist while he continues giving neo nazi morons excuses to bash skulls and burn churches. Guilty by association? No way, he's their leader, he writes their bibles, and reads it to a select bunch who also happen to have ties to the other racist groups who ARE guilty of hate crimes definded by the Criminal Code of Canada. Maybe not all of them, there are a ton of back closet racists out there, and quite frankly: They are the ones allowing racism to remain deep rooted in communitues with their acceptance of it. <br /> <br />At my last place I was disgusted at how long a piece of racist graffiti was written at a near by highschool close to the front entrance. I walked by it for six months before taking my own marker over to scribble it out. I couldn't imagine going to school there everyday reading that sign if I was the intended target. Now I live on the other side of town and I see a white power symbol spray painted on a wall near a jewish cemetary. I wonder how long it's been there? <br /> <br />Most racists are morons who piss their pants when confronted but when with their buddies can really get going into a full blown clan meeting. I don't understand the paranioa or superiority complex of the white man, I am ashamed of my heritage for the most part.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= robert_fisher] [QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] <br />Mentioning a person's name is not hate. There is nothing in ethier of those posts you refer to that can be considered 'hate' under the criminal code of Canada. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Fair enough. <br /> <br />I don't like where this is going. All I'll say is you can't defend a guy because he is a pacifist while he continues giving neo nazi morons excuses to bash skulls and burn churches. Guilty by association? No way, he's their leader, he writes their bibles, and reads it to a select bunch who also happen to have ties to the other racist groups who ARE guilty of hate crimes definded by the Criminal Code of Canada. Maybe not all of them, there are a ton of back closet racists out there, and quite frankly: They are the ones allowing racism to remain deep rooted in communitues with their acceptance of it. <br /> <br />At my last place I was disgusted at how long a piece of racist graffiti was written at a near by highschool close to the front entrance. I walked by it for six months before taking my own marker over to scribble it out. I couldn't imagine going to school there everyday reading that sign if I was the intended target. Now I live on the other side of town and I see a white power symbol spray painted on a wall near a jewish cemetary. I wonder how long it's been there? <br /> <br />Most racists are morons who piss their pants when confronted but when with their buddies can really get going into a full blown clan meeting. I don't understand the paranioa or superiority complex of the white man, I am ashamed of my heritage for the most part.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />No need to get melodramatic. Only the PC globalists want you to be ashamed of your heritage....why the paranoia? Well, white people are a small part of the world's population, maybe they're afraid we're disappearing. Paranoid, but paranoia isn't illegal yet. Graffiti is, however. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'>

[Marcarc]

Yes, let's keep the melodrama to a minimum, not even the courts accept that he's their leader. Do some research on the actual amount of hate crime in Canada, it's pretty interesting. As well as the whole censorship issue. In fact, in some ways I see benefits, like the printer fined $5000 for refusing to print gay literature, and the farmer fined for quoting the bible.