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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:10 pm
 


It looks like this thread is a bit off topic. Apparently, we were supposed to wish Zundel a Happy Christmas... <br /> <br />But a reminder that he may have managed Canadian citizenship if he hadn't violated the terms of his bail and fled the country. So, no, he did not *fear* he would be arrested when he left Canada, he already had been arrested. So, why should we grant him refugee status if he's demostrated he won't follow the law? <br /> <br />Further, I'd point out that it isn't just moronic, weak little white boys who feel insecure who join white supremacy groups. Sometimes, yes, they are. But I think the mainstream media and even the independants have done us a disservice when they show the insecurity or physical weakness, the geekiness and the irrationality of their subjects. Rarely have I seen focus placed on the people in the movement who are like the white supremacists I've met; intelligent, strong, charismatic, good-looking, and well-versed in remaining under the radar. These people don't give a crap what Zundel says or writes, but its a good tool of recruitment for the boys the media is fond of focusing on. <br />



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:59 pm
 


He has, in fact, always followed the law. He has always been adept at 'using the holes in the system'. There is no doubt, this is not a quiet man, he uses the system to get as much publicity as possible. Ironic that I just finished watching the Fifth Estate about some guy who has no papers yet is also quite adept at using media for his purposes-and he's walking around Vancouver right now when he could be a flight risk or even a terrorist. <br /> As far as granting refugee status I think he should be granted citizenship. Not because I like him or think he says anything nice, but I know far more people a lot worse who are walking our streets. Plus, the case has been so bungled by our government that that is the only thing left to 'right' the earlier wrongs. It would have been great had they simply made it illegal to lie in the media, then he would either be in another country willingly or doing time honestly like all the other criminals. But that is hindsight. <br /> As far as the whole issue of white supremacists, that is a complex subject. When a police force in a rural prairie town uses racial profiling or hassles a native or black, or whatever, is that not white supremacy? By our very unjust treatment of natives aren't we all white supremacists?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:09 am
 


[QUOTE BY= Marcarc]By our very unjust treatment of natives aren't we all white supremacists?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />That's a awfully broad brush you're using there. Because someone has experienced hardship, does not mean it was because of the colour of their skin. Because someone is a white police officer, does that mean everything they do is racially motivated? <br /> <br />"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Sigmund Freud. <br />



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:30 am
 


Certainly not, however, you'll note the word 'hassle'. Meaning just that. However, I am of the opinion that unless you're a visible minority then you really aren't entitled to comment on such things. Canadians, like most, don't like seeing the bad inside our system and ourselves. At university in Fredericton, New Brunswick, as I worked as ombudsman at the university I could write a book on all the 'horror stories' many africans and natives experienced at the hands of an all white police force in a town with relatively little crime. Nowadays, of course, it isn't just racially motivated, the homeless will tell you similar stories. That doesn't mean it's 'racially motivated', it's something else entirely, something you can't really comment on until you've experience homelessness (I work with a lot of them so I at least have 'heard' the experiences-and enough of them and with sufficient research that I know it isn't all fabrication). <br /> But if you look at the issues, they are scarily similar. Most white supremacy groups haven't resorted to violence in Canada because essentially their main aims are already realized, namely, the supremacy of the 'white race' (I'm still not sure what that is definitely) combined with the often unlooked for yet perhaps unwelcome brutality of other races by government agents. I know people like to 'draw the line' when it comes to our own behaviour, but police are government instruments and our government is as white as they come.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:18 am
 


[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] However, I am of the opinion that unless you're a visible minority then you really aren't entitled to comment on such things. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Really? So, only visible minorities know what racism is? And visible minorities never play the 'race' card? So everyone is just supposed to be OK with that? Because I might be a single white male, I'm just supposed to withold my opinions on Racism? <br /> <br />Congratulations. You've just discovered reverse racism my friend. <br /> <br />I get tired of hearing that 'the white man holds us down'. Bullshit. Some may do so, but I don't. Whatever happened to personal accountability? I may have certain advantages, being born in a country like Canada, but I don't use those advantages to leverage myself above anyone else, let alone my fellow Canadians. <br /> <br />If a Police officer is keeping an eye on a group of Slobovian males, perhaps it's not because they're Slobovian, but because the Officer has experience in the past with trouble from similar, or the same group of males. Is this racial profiling? Yes. Is this racially motivated? No. <br />



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:53 am
 


[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] ... but because the Officer has experience in the past with trouble from similar, or the same group of males. Is this racial profiling? Yes. Is this racially motivated? No. <br />[/QUOTE] <br />That is a slippery slope. Dr. Caleb: what would you think of Americans police starting to profile Vive members because perhaps a Vive member has challenged a well connected US judge? I am *not* saying that this happened. I think there has to be some kind of control on the police watch. Back to the topic: let's say Zundel has put together an online community of interest (similar to VIve), should the police monitor the content and focus on some participants that might flip over the edge? I will mention that mental disorder is a serious issue here on this that could justify this at the limit. Or is this what a Moderator could flag to the police??? Slippery indeed.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:25 am
 


[QUOTE BY= gaulois] <br />That is a slippery slope. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />An extremely slippery slope. But that is their job. <br /> <br />There is a very regular and increasing incidence of Native and Asian gangs gunning each other down here on the streets of Edmonton. Black gangs have even killed asians inside West Edmonton Mall, with a sword. Should the police ignore this trend because of political correctness? <br /> <br />The difference is - I am not the police. Because certain groups; be they gangs of Asians, Whites, Blacks - whomever, tend toward violence and attract the attention of police; that should not reflect on me in the eyes of any of those minorities. I do not automatically assume any group of males/females constitutes a 'gang', and I expect the same in return. <br /> <br />I fully expect that intellgence groups keep tabs on all discussion sites, whether it's Vive or some White Supremecist site. That is their job. <br /> <br />But for society to proceed down that slippery slope is indeed wrong. That was my point above. Herr Zundels message, while mostly benign, carries with it the seeds of hate. That is what must be stopped. My ex-wife's grandfather raised 3 children in Nazi Germany, and he always stressed to me how dangerous those seeds really are. And how innocent they first appear. <br />



Take the Kama Sutra. How many people died from the Kama Sutra as opposed to the Bible? - Frank Zappa


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:30 am
 


As far as Zundel goes, I'll restate my earlier statement that there are two very different kinds of 'racism', there is the ones that the public holds-and these are usually benign sentiments of the type stated here, the 'you should watch all minorities because other minorities commit crimes'. Of course just as many white kids are in gangs, but that is never the issue because we've taught the white kids and asian or native kids not to associate. <br /> The far more threatening racism is the 'state sponsored' racism. We see this in Canada whenever natives try to do anything to better themselves that isn't in 'our' best interest. This is what we are talking about here, because unlike the general 'distrust' you may have because of media's portrayal of minorities, state sponsored 'seeds of hate' have the impact of becoming precedent in law. This is what the Zundel's case is about. It is bill c-68 being used against a defendant, just like in the states where people are held on no charge (except the ones the government has made up specifically for this purpose). Again, he is held without charge and is not even granted the most basic rights that should be afforded all people. This is not an isolated case though- there are others, and many could rightfully chastise us for the racism we show in granting so much attention on Zundel when there are others of middle eastern descent who have suffered similarly. I would make the same arguments there if anybody started a thread, however, I notice there haven't even been any stories on here concerning such things. <br /> I think many people on here should take a look at themselves and their own views. There is, of course, very good reasons why natives/minorities/french do not spend much time here. It is because we are the problem. Perhaps YOU do not practise racism in your day to day life because you don't need to-your representatives do it for you. Your police and your justice system does it for you. We as canadians can sit back and be smug. We read the papers and watch TV and think we're the most intelligent people in the world, when in fact we are even more brainwashed than the average american. Of course, heaven forbid we admit this.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:57 am
 


One final note about the 'personal responsibility' comment. This does not apply to native issues, quite simply because natives on reserves HAVE no personal responsibilty because they have no personal freedom. Go read the indian act (or just a book about it) and you'll see that a reservation is not a municipality. Virtually every aspect of life is regulated by the federal government-even moreso than our overregulated lives. <br /> If we stuck you out in the middle of nowhere, gave you a little money-but not enough for even the essentials of life, let alone to educate yourself or better your life. If we gave you access to your land but refused to allow you export licenses so you can't do anything with it, if we cut most of your land ourselves and didn't reimburse you and polluted your harvest land to boot. Under such conditions it's the acme of foolishness to be talking about 'personal responsibility'. <br /> I conclude that it's a racist term to even come up with 'reverse discrimination'-first because it makes no sense (reverse discrimination would be fairness). And second because we know what it implies, that somehow the people most miserable in our country by our own government's hands are somehow 'getting a leg up' because a few people defend them.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:52 pm
 


<br /> If Bush can come to Canada without being thrown in jail for what I would consider far more "hateful" murderous, genocidal crimes than Zundel has committed or any murderer currently in our prisions then that says all we need to know about the crapola justice we have in Canada. <br /> <br /> Marcarc: I feel the most comfortable with the views you are expressing here and the reason being: Go look under the heading "Our Civil Liberties" on the Home page and see how many articles are there about Arar and others and that some have no comments on them.


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This is a copy of a letter I recently sent to Mr. Thomas Blatt. He was apart of the revolution at Sobibor.<br /> <br /> "Dear Mr. Blatt,<br /> <br /> My name is Melissa, I am 27 years old - I live in Canada. I have read several books on WWII, including "Rise and the fall of the Third Reich", but one of my favorite books was "Escape from Sobibor". I watched "Auschwitz - Inside the Nazi State", the conclusion was on last night - and it inspired me to write you. <br /> <br /> I have never known persecution - I have known what it is like to be hated, but I have never had anyone close to me who died because of it. The people in my country fought and died in the war so that I would never know what it feels like, and I am forever grateful that my children will never have to go through what the children of WWII in Gernany and Poland went through. Sometimes I look at the faces of my two children (Hannah is 15 weeks old, and Nicholas is 7 years old) - and I think to myself what I would do. I would do what you did - and try to escape - or die trying to escape. Although thinking about it, we three wouldn't have had the chance. We would have been exterminated immediately. I would have never let those monsters take my children away and kill them without killing me too. I guess that's the heartache but the instincts of any parent - if your children are to be killed, they can't do it alone and scared. It gives me chills to think about it. It has also kept me up very late at night because of it.<br /> <br /> I have a story to tell you - about when I lived in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada years ago. I was in High School, and I dated someone who I was in love with. Eventually, I met his parents, and his grandparents lived across the street from him. His grandfather is German, and getting to know my boyfriend a little more, I soon discovered that his Grandfather had a secret. Although the details were never really told to me, I came to understand that he fought in the war - but not for the allies. It is also my understanding that he wasn't in the army either, he did something else. A few years later, my boyfriend and I moved in together, and at Christmas, we went to his Grandparents house on Christmas Eve. We started talking - although he barely spoke a word of English. He asked me my last name - and all of a sudden his attitude changed. You see - my grandfather also fought in the war - he fought in Italy - but that wasn't the reason why he grew to dislike me. My Grandfather was active in the Communist movement after the war, he was a member of the Communist party - and it is something I am proud of, mainly because someone in my family believed passionately about improving our way of life eventhough western culture hates Communists. He called me a "Communist Pig" - eventhough the politics in my family died when my Grandfather died long ago. I looked at him, got my jacket on, and said "I don't know what you did in the war, but let me tell you something - when you die, hell will be a good place for you Nazi pigs. They have a special place for all of you - ready and waiting". I also let him know that he resided in a country founded on acceptance and that he was a tresspasser in my country. I don't think he understood me - like I said - he barely spoke a word of English - but let me tell you - he heard the word "Nazi" and he looked shocked, almost guilty. I smiled, told everyone "Merry Christmas" - and walked home a very proud woman.<br /> <br /> It's interesting to me looking back on it now - how regular, everyday people think my last name is "cool" - some even wonder if I am Japanese because of my last name. I am proud to tell them I am Finish. I am equally as proud to tell them about my Grandfather, and I don't care what kind of reaction I get when I tell them. But normally, people old and young don't just bring up my family's political background. Funny how he did though, he was born and bred to hate "communist pigs". Unfortunately, this country let him in, why? I don't understand. He's still alive by the way - and I haven't spoken to him since that day. I am almost afraid to for fear of what I might say to him - it might bring me down to his level. I tried to find out what he did, they wouldn't even tell me his name, and because my then boyfriend had a different last name - I'll never know. It is also shocking to know that someone like him came to this country and brought his values with him. I heard last night and I've also read about almost 90% of German SS Officers were never put on trial, was he one of them? Does that mean that all those people died and justice will never be served? I feel sorrow but I fear that the society we live in will always remember the people who were murdered, but never truly punished the people who did it in the first place. Those children were killed, and that sorry excuse of a man lived in my neighborhood? What kind of world do we live in anyway?<br /> <br /> So many things go through my mind on this subject - I think about the people of Sudan who are living the same life you lived long ago, and I think to myself "Why not put an absolute stop to this?" - and then my heart gives the answer, and then my heart breaks. The answer is that those murderers in Sudan have not attacked us, they have not killed Canadians, or British, or Americans, so why should we care anyway? They have not flown planes into our buildings, and they have not killed any "innocent people" - so it okay to turn a blind eye. We are not fighting anymore world wars, so it's really an issue of out-of-sight and out-of-mind - and it makes me want to throw up. It makes me want to tell you that I am sorry. I am sorry that society hasn't really learned from it's mistakes, and that we as free people in a free society who are envied just don't really care about anyone else but ourselves. <br /> <br /> I want to tell you how much I respect you - not because you fought and died for your beliefs, but because you fought and lived in that horror - and lived to tell the world your experiences - and to remind people that they must have compassion and love for every person no matter what. I will teach my children to do the same, and hopefully they will teach their children, and so on. We will never forget, but my family will always be learning from it.<br /> <br /> Thank you - from the bottom of my heart and my soul. Thank you.<br /> <br /> Melissa"<br /> <br /> <br /> -- The fact of the matter here is that there will always be people in this world who have negative and positive contributions to history. Both have effects on the society we live in. It's what we as individuals teach our future generations, as well as how what we contribute to history and society that will set our standard of living in the future, and will set the standard for our children. Fortunately, our government may have the power to prohibit the spread of hate and intollerance, but there will always be someone out there who will let the hate be heard. All I can do on my part is to teach my children to love, and to respect everyone - regardless of religion or race. My children will teach their children the same values, and much like a pebble in a pond, the present will soon become history, and my great-great grandchildren will look back on these times and will know how better off they are because of the values they were taught.<br /> <br /> The things that Ernst Zundel has to say is falling on deaf ears. My ears are shut anyway - I just know better. <br /> <br />


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:43 pm
 


Oh and by the way - the same acceptance goes for people of sexual orientation - I am talking people of all races, religions, and sexual preferrences. I live in a house where one of the two adults do not feel the same way. Husband or not, he will not teach my kids to hate. NO WAY.

Thanks for listening.
Melissa


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:59 pm
 


Interesting letter, however, we are talking about two very different things. We are talking about Bill C-68. It is very easy for a society to make laws and as was said before, our government had the opportunity to make a law where it was illegal to knowingly spread false information (such as Zundel was doing). The media pressure kept them from doing this. Under bill C-68 he is held without even being able to find out why. To me that is the ACME of hatred. When you can take away all a person's rights without letting them defend themselves in a court of law. Even in the states there is really no justification for such an action, and in Canada there is far far less. If people are really concerned about the spread of hatred-although I must admit that it wasn't exactly the milk of christian kindness to tell an old man there's a place in hell waiting for him and his 'kind'. You never grew up in Germany and have no idea how you would react-however, we can guess if you are as confident in your government as you appear to be.<br /> <br /> I suggest you do some more reading, particularly about Canada if you think this is true. Before the war much of the material Hitler was using came from Canada. Most countries knew of the 'night of long knives' yet did nothing, and one of the MP's in canadian government remarked publicly that 'one jew is too many' for canadian soil. Canada took in among the fewest refugees and imprisoned the japanese. Interestingly the many germans were not, since german at the time was the third largest ethnicity in Canada. The government was so inept and mean spirited that while the media and government were revved up to 'fill boots', they wouldn't even build up the navy and as a result german subs sunk practically every ship that left Canada in the first three years of the war. How many died is never talked about, just the heroics of soldiers overseas (and I'm certainly not bashing the soldiers). German subs were even bombing up and down the St.Lawrence while the government refused to let the media warn people.<br /> <br /> On the economic side government officials acted close to treasonously and were chastised as such by many English politicians. When Great Britain sent war consultants to canada they were horrified to find that the country wasn't even trying to work to capacity to supply equipment. Maritime steel factories sat empty while the government bought materials from the states because, as CD Howe put it..."maritime industry does not figure prominantly in our post war economy". Obviously he was not too concerned about the threat to our 'freedom'.<br /> <br /> So before you expect your government officials to be a beacon of morality I suggest further reading. As far as your comments on the sadness of society goes, you are correct-in a way. However, if you look at a map of the world you will find bloodshed in far more places than the Sudan. And if you want you don't have to look further than canada where over 500 native women have gone 'missing' since the eighties. However, if you feel so strongly there is nothing keeping you from joining one of the many peace organizations who are doing work in the Sudan. All too often people look overseas and wish their army and politicians would do more, if you want to help the unfortunate, there are plenty right here at home waiting. It's easy to want somebody else to do the hard work.<br /> <br />


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:58 pm
 


Hello - first off - I am fully aware that our government isn't perfect - it never has and will never be. Neither are the Americans and the British - and really - no government is really perfect in this world. I am not sure why you keep bringing up the point in your previous posts about how corrupt Canada is - when all countries are corrupt in one way or another. On that note, I'd like to say that I think it is right to stop Zundel from spreading his hate - it goes against what we do stand for here in Canada. As much of a constitutional flaw you may think that is, I feel it is my right as a Canadian NOT to have to recognize his point - so I am able to teach my children how to be good people. YES - I know Canada isn't the bright and peace-loving country that we all think it is - but just about every country before, during, and after the war wasn't all that bright and cushy either. What are we going to do about it? What are YOU going to do about it Marcarc? Move to another country? You'd be on a forum there too, talking about how the country you live in isn't so great either. The truth is that even through all the things Canadians have done, and still do to others - one thing is certain - this place is one of the better countries to live in. If this was another country - China for example - would you have been able to carry on and on with your opinions? Probably not. This forum might have been sensored - whether the things you had to say were good or not. <br /> <br /> I can venture a guess as to why Zundel has been censored. The things people write and say DO influence people. Many things that have been written have influence people. The bible as an example. It brought on ideas and negative feelings about the Jewish Community, "The Jews killed Christ" and so on. It has also brought out the good in people as well as it tries to teach good morals to people. However Zundel is an example of a person who wishes to hurt others, to promote taking violent actions against certain groups of people. He uses his words to do so, and if YOU think that impressionable people read that and don't take action you are wrong. You mention in an earlier post that young impressionable white males will not "buy into" a brochure and what it contains. I worked as a teen councellor about 5 years ago - and there was a 16 year old who I knew shaved his head and started his own chapter of the DOC (Diciples of Christ) -- all because he watched the movie "American History X" -- and eventhough the movie promoted the idea of acceptance, him and the other 10 young men he recruited thought it was okay to go and beat up on all the muslim kids in his High School because the majority of the jobs in the local mall were taken by his Lebanese classmates. <br /> <br /> SO - if a movie that gives the message of acceptance and a rejection of hate invokes violence against people of other races, then what kind of actions do you think Zundel will invoke in people based on what he writes in a brochure?<br /> <br /> Lock him up in jail - make him a martyr - let people know that his ideas are not accepted in this society. Period. Do you have children Marcarc? Are you letting them know these things? Or are you going to be the one to tell them "Oh you know - you can listen to what he has to say - it's his right as a person to do so" - that opens it up for just so many things - good and bad. <br /> <br /> Young impressionable people, as retarded as they may be, are the future of our world. The high school kid who thought it was okay to beat up on muslim kids was wanting to find a copy of "Mein Kampf" before we sat him down and talked to him about how wrong it is to hate. Obviously YOU do not buy into someone's ideas just because it is in a brochure - but some people do - and that is just a fact of life. <br /> <br /> The idea of someone being sensored doesn't sound like we really live in a free society, but really - do you even want to hear someone promoting the idea of killing people? It is very hard to imagine the idea of millions of men, women and children being gassed to begin with - nevermind hearing someone go on and on about how right it is?! That is just wrong! Yes - the theories about censorship and calling a pot a pot is all noted here - but the fact remains that he promotes violence, and he promotes Genocide (or sorry - he denies that millions of people were murdered - that's even worse!) and he promotes what we would call a crime in this country. <br /> <br /> I am going on and on. I am just not too sure why some people feel that he should be heard. Deport him - send him home and let him be judged.<br /> <br /> By the way - I am not a christian. I do not have any religious background, however, when I told that decrepid old man what I thought of him, it was because I told him what I thought of him. I mean come on here - didn't he tell me what he thought of me?<br /> <br /> <br /> <br />


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:46 pm
 


I have another point I'd like to make - yes - it is real easy for me to sit here and hope and pray for my government and my army to help those poor people in Sudan, just like it is so easy for you to post articles on Native control over their own finances and give your own opinion on it? Are you a member of the First Nations? Because if you are, and if you are that politically involved - then I would assume here that you are the only one who's opinion and feelings really matter, right?<br /> <br /> My question is this: you post articles about Native Rights, and obviously you have issues with the Canadian Government oppressing Native people - yet you are completely alright with giving a man like Zundel a citizenship to "right the wrongs done" - how does that make sense??<br /> <br />


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