[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= oost_oneiric] ...of Hilton Hotel employees in Niagara Falls. I have a friend who works at the front desk at the hotel and he just told me of this new "policy." They now will have to thumbscan to clock in and out. THIS IS REDICULOUS. <br /> <br />The invasion of privacy is continuing ahead full speed. This is just another step. and a signifigant one. It's unclear yet if it's just a new company specific policy or if it is somehow federally or provincially required now (being so close to the border, "security threat", whatever). Either way I told my friend to fight it. To refuse. I'll update as I find out more. <br /> <br />Next we'll have ID cards and retina scanning. Survelience cameras and implanted computer tracking chips under our skin. Complete and total lack of privacy. Continuous monitoring. This is sickening. <br /> <br />Is thumb scanning required anywhere else yet?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />I don't know, but yeah I mentioned 1984 a while back regarding the "chips" approved by teh FDA that have "multiple purposes." <br /> <br />I do know that any Canadian on a work visa may now have to be fingerprinted at the U.S. border. <br /> <br />Cards are okay for getting into buildings after hours, but finerprints are ridiculous. <br /> <br /> <br />Speaking of pricacy, all university applications in Ontario must now be submitted over the internet, and all community college apllications require: (get this) <br /> <br />1 - an e-mail, <br /> <br />2 - a SIN numner, and <br /> <br />3 - a Visa or Mastercard number! <br /> <br />This information also must be sent via the internet. <br /> <br />Post-secondary schools are the worst for privacy.

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= oost_oneiric] ...of Hilton Hotel employees in Niagara Falls. <br /> <br />Is thumb scanning required anywhere else yet?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Yes. The company I work for requires unionized hourly employees to clock in/out using a card and thumb scan as well. It's policy throuought all US branches, and relatively new to the Canadian branches. It's beneficial to the employees, as most can't remember passwords. I've got a thumbscanner in my office right now as a backup - they really don't like cold Canadian winters. <br /> <br />Thumb scanners are also avalable for PC's, as an external attachment, or built into the mouse/keyboard, as a way of having a secure log on. Laptops too. <br /> <br />

[Jesse]

Thumb scanners are no different than having to swipe in with a badge, except that most people will never forget their thumb at home or have their thumb stolen and used by someone else. I don't think this is an invasion of privacy; they already know who you are and that you work there. They have a lot more information about you than that, too. <br /> <br />Now, if you were required to thumb scan to *stay* there, there might be some questions about privacy. Not as is.

[Jesse]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] <br />I do know that any Canadian on a work visa may now have to be fingerprinted at the U.S. border. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I didn't get fingerprinted; is this new in the last 3 months?

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= jvanherk] <br /> <br />I didn't get fingerprinted; is this new in the last 3 months?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Yes, and no. It's recent, but only for non-Canadian citizens crossing the border. I think what they're referring to is proposed new biometric passports, that may or may not include data on finger prints or retinal scans. <br /> <br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] [QUOTE BY= jvanherk] <br /> <br />I didn't get fingerprinted; is this new in the last 3 months?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Yes, and no. It's recent, but only for non-Canadian citizens crossing the border. I think what they're referring to is proposed new biometric passports, that may or may not include data on finger prints or retinal scans. <br /> <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Well, there's been a lot of news in Ontario that even Canadians on work visas will be required to be fingerprinted at three different bridge crossings.....I don't believe this has been enforced yet, but they've been talking about it a while now.

[robert_fisher]

The one question no one is asking is: <br /> <br />Since when was finger print identification necessary for anything other than identifying criminals? <br /> <br />It seems over the top to me. To just accept another crazy security measure is like sliding head first into less freedom. Terrorism has only hurt me in one way, the idiotic talk everyone has been going on about concerning our safety. <br /> <br />Living next door to the US is the most unsafe thing I can think of, given their own official admitance that the war on terror has created more terror.

[Jesse]

[QUOTE BY= robert_fisher] The one question no one is asking is: <br /> <br />Since when was finger print identification necessary for anything other than identifying criminals? <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Like I said, these are employees who already have to wear employee photo ID badges. Nothing is changing, other than making the system less susceptible to abuse, and making it more convenient for the employees. I personally hate wearing a photo ID badge; but I am fond of taking my thumb to work.

[robert_fisher]

[QUOTE BY= jvanherk] making it more convenient [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Isn't that the cause of half of the problems we have in the world? Making things more convenient.

[hermanator_st]

It's weird that I saw this post right after I saw a related story: <br /><a href="http://sympaticomsn.workopolis.com/servlet/Content/fasttrack/20041208/RRETAIL08?section=babyGAM"> <br />http://sympaticomsn.workopolis.com/servlet/Content/fasttrack/20041208/RRETAIL08?section=babyGAM</a> <br /><br> <br />It seems that print scanning has also moved to the pharmecutical realm.

[Jesse]

Seriously, why do people have a problem with this? Fingerprint scanners are *way* more secure than passwords. If you're concerned about the security of your personal information, you should be happy that the companies that have it are taking measures to increase that security. These are only a problem if you need to submit to fingerprinting before you can *buy* something at IDA, or to stay at the hotel. Securing computers and the information they contain is a valid and beneficial use of this technology.

[robert_fisher]

[QUOTE BY= jvanherk] Seriously, why do people have a problem with this? Fingerprint scanners are *way* more secure than passwords. If you're concerned about the security of your personal information, you should be happy that the companies that have it are taking measures to increase that security. These are only a problem if you need to submit to fingerprinting before you can *buy* something at IDA, or to stay at the hotel. Securing computers and the information they contain is a valid and beneficial use of this technology.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />But...why do they need fingerprints? They know who you are, your SIN number, DOB, address, what more do they need. Computer access is the security flaw. I am not saying let's go back to the stoneage, but maybe technologies that provide more security are actually providing less. Humans have survived for thousands of years without thumbprint IDs. What happened to a lock and key and a paper punch clock system? Where was the security flaw? <br /> <br />Once something is in a database isn't it therefore always somewhere, and therefore access is not absolutely secure. I think it's unneccessary, and inapropriate, your fingerprints are part of your being, and personally I don't want my dna, thumbprint or retina scan opening any doors for me that wouldn't already be accessible. <br /> <br />The security industry just keeps on growing, and people that fear security breaches, to organizations, and trades that have survived locks and keys for decades don't really, to me, warrant that sort of ID. <br /> <br />For every great program created by software designers there are disgruntled employees, who know the coding, and are usually the ones that provide cracks to programs for the rest of the illegal copies people get their hands on. I don't see how this is any different.

[Reverend Blair]

What happens if you injure your thumb? If somebody wanted my right thumbprint right now, they'd better enjoy the sight of blood, for instance. <br /> <br />I'm just thinking of the workplace scans here...it doesn't sound like they have a full set of prints.

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= robert_fisher] <br />But...why do they need fingerprints? [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Something identifiable is needed. Something unique. <br /> <br />A password is good, but many people forget them, or don't keep them secure. It got so bad at my job for a while, I knew everyone's password, and "password" "secret" or "boobies" made up 9/10 of peoples passwords. <br /> <br />A card isn't bad ethier, but many mechanics lose their cards too often, so it ends up being more of a hassel than passwords. You can't lose your thumb. Usually. <br /> <br />Thumbprint scanners don't store a copy of your thumbprint in a database. They scan the print, turn it into numbers, then 'hash' those numbers to come up with a unique value. That value is then compared to a known value stored in a database. <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Reverend Blair] What happens if you injure your thumb? [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />The 'hash' takes care of things that change about your finger. Dirt, cuts, how it scans when it's cold, as opposed to if it'd hot and sweaty . . . <br /> <br />But, if you lose your thumb, some other finger can be scanned instead. The only problem is if someone creates a copy of your thumb that the scanner will recognize - you can't change your thumb <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/frown.gif' alt='Frown'> <br />

[Jesse]

[QUOTE BY= robert_fisher] <br />But...why do they need fingerprints? They know who you are, your SIN number, DOB, address, what more do they need. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Without the card, or the password, or the fingerprint, they *don't* know who you are. The fingerprint is letting them know that you are employee number 12345 with SIN 999-999-999. <br /> <br />I think Dr Caleb hit the core of the problem; people are confused about what is being stored. When you use a password on a computer, your actual password is not stored. Let's say your password is "ilikecats". When that is stored, it is first put through a 'hash' and converted into "LSWN.y1qnTVp6" and then stored. Any time you try logging in, the computer puts whatever password you type through that same hash, and if it also comes out to "LSWN.y1qnTVp6", then you have typed the right password, and you are who you claim to be. <br /> <br />*Exactly* the same thing is done with fingerprint scanners. It would take far too much time and memory to compare a picture of your fingerprint every time you want to get into your computer (or POS machine, or into the employee only section of the hotel). So, when you are first set up in the system, they take a scan of your thumbprint, put it into a hash, and store the result. <br /> <br />From then on, each time your thumb is scanned, the scan is passed through the same hash and the results are compared. <br /> <br />For security's sake, ALL current hashes throw in some extra information making the stored hash value unique to the system. This is so that an evil hacker can't just put every word in the dictionary through the hash on his own computer and then compare the results with those stored on the victom's computer. So if I work at the Niagara falls Hilton, the stored value might be "LSWN.y1qnTVp6". But using the exact same thumbprint at IDA pharmacy, anbd the result might be "gNo3VHufw38Sk". And that's assuming they even use the same hardware and the same software. <br /> <br />The security professionals designing these systems are working with over 30 years of research. They're not just making it up as they go along and hope that it is secure.