[saga]

I haven't "flipped out" yet, Hyperweevil, and when I do you will know! irish Canadian grannies can flip out with the best of them!!! lol lol
No I am not aboriginal ... just a garden variety Canadian who looks forward to living in an honourable country one day, acquired by legal means.

I don't find your arguments worth much emotion because the government is negotiating with them. I acknowledge your concern (however misplaced) for the elderly couple, but their own behaviour was the problem. They needed no protection. The lady intentuionally got out of the car to confront Audra! I don't think she was feeling frightened in the least ... she was spoiling for a fight too! However, charges have been laid. What more is possible?

The ATF vehicle ... did a stupid thing went into their territory (sixth line leads nowhere except into the reserve). What did they expect? A welcoming party? And again, charges laid. What more do you want?

If you want them to stop attacking you, stop attacking them. The violence started April 20 about 5 am. It was instigated by a crooked judge and crooked developers with the help of a clueless racist mayor.
You were used.

[Arctic_Menace]

[saga]

That sign is getting a biot old, menace ... here's a new one for ya!!
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare.php

[saga]

Hyperion:
If I am in jail, why am I still posting?

lol

Well, as Regina said, it appears somebody left the siderails down on granny's bed, and you guys keep saying things I have to respond to!!
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

As for why I am in jail? (Actually, account now suspended):

It's because my opinions offend your delicate sensibilities, I guess. I tell the truth, people flame at me, and I get put in jail. Go figure!

I am proud of the actions of the OPP in Caledonia now. They enforce the Constitution and protect the Haudenosaunee's constitutional rights, in spite of the lowlife Caledonia instigators.

Your bit about getting educated etc. is ironic, Hyperion ... that's exactly what has opened their eyes to the truth and to their legal rights.

They did not 'come here' to be Canadians like other ethnic minority groups, so threaten them with deportation all you like ... there is no legal basis for that, and in my opinion it is immoral. The only truth is Canada's legal responsibilities, and that is being sorted out in negotiations right now.

One fact that emerged last week is that the government's own records show the Plank Road UNCEDED as of 1900. That means that the Douglas Creek Estates property - the reclamation site - is theirs, along with all the properties half a mile deep, and 12 miles long along highway 6/Argyle.

Like I said ... you were used ... to try to intimidate them out of their land claims that the government already knew were legitimate ... like Oka ... like Ipperwash ... like Grassy Narrows ... like all of their claims.

Claims in the rest of the Haldimand Tract are also valid, so the whole thing is under review, parcel by parcel. The government is finally addressing these two hundred year old legitimate claims which have been protested for 200 years as well.

[saga]

The misuse of police by governments isn't quite as bad as it used to be, though. At least you aren't given assignments like this anymore...

Grassy Narrows blockade, 2003:
"Another warrior, Charlie, 48, has a soft and slow voice that can be difficult to follow, but his stories are worth the effort. He was put in residential school at the age of seven and escaped several times, each time getting sent to a school further from home. Four years and six escapes later, he was in a school near Sault Ste-Marie, where the nuns beat him unconscious with hockey sticks. He still has the scars.

"I knew that if I stayed, they'd kill me, so I escaped again. I made it to Winnipeg [1,450 kilometres away] on foot through the bush, living off the land, fooling the police dogs in the woods. They didn't catch me that time until I was 21," he says. The other men his age have similar residential school stories. Nothing can happen to them in jail or in a gunfight that's worse than what already has."

... and consider this ...

"Nothing you've seen in any Afghan refugee camp will prepare you for Grassy Narrows," says Concordia anthropology graduate student Tiffany Ryan. "The place is notorious in the profession. Anthropologists go there to study the problems and turn into aid workers because they have no choice."

both quotes from "Clearcut Defiance: The Ojibway of Grassy Narrows, Ontario, stand up to Montreal-based pulp and paper monolith Abitibi-Consolidated "
http://www.montrealmirror.com/ARCHIVES/ ... news3.html

They are not enemies, as many would like to paint them. They were our allies and we made them dispossessed and decimated peoples in order to keep the land that we took illegally. They want it back now, and they are well within their rights and Canadian laws. It is not them that defy the law ... it is our governments.

[BartSimpson]

Saga, beating up *anyone* for taking pictures is not acceptable. Acting like terrorists is not helping your case, either.

If your claims are legitimate then so should be your actions.

But if you want to act like terrorists remember that when your actions define you as terrorists then it won't be the OPP or the RCMP you'll be dealing with anymore - it'll be the Canadian Forces and they will not be coming after you folks to negotiate.

Likewise, if it gets to that point then public opinion will be against you, as well. You may not care about that, but to the courts and the politicians who appoint the judges public opinion is everything.

Public opinion is what dispossesed you of your lands the first time.

[PJB]

$1:

They have their own law, their own passports, their own justice system.

Hyperion, you are just speaking crap. You know nothing. Pay attention to what happens in the negotiations. That will give you a clue about our legal obligations.

Native Canadians can have their own law, passports and justice system but they better not expect Canadians to enforce their laws or detain their criminals. It would cost these natives every penny that they expect to get from these landclaims to house their own native prisoners.

You better be careful what you demand as you might just get kicked off of the gravytrain.

btw..You never did provide proof of those 50,000 that died in residential schools...Fact or Oral history?

[saga]

saga..I tend to question the claim that 50,000 natives died in residential schools. Please provide proof of this claim.
......................................
There have been three studies of death rates in the residential schools. The first one in 1907 was commissioned by the government, and showed a 50% death rate. The study was quashed. The death rates climbed after that, ranging from 30-70% depending on the school. 50,000 is a conservative estimate (it is likely higher) based on 50% of enrollment.
http://www.turtleisland.org/resources/church4.gif
Lots of information and links there. See esp. hiddenfromhistory links for reports of the studies mentioned.
The Coast Salish people of BC (some pictured above) have recently put out a letter to be distributed to all Indigenous people asking for names of children who died in the schools. The list is being compiled in this way, because the churches records are incomplete and suspect.

http://www.anglicanjournal.com/canadian ... ettlement/
" Two other objectors raised the issue of missing students who never returned from the schools and whose parents wonder, to this day, what became of them. The issue of missing students is not mentioned in the agreement.

“Nobody has mentioned the children that passed away or weren’t sent home. Some weren’t even registered,” a teary-eyed Shirley Roach said. “There should be a recognition of them because they were there and their parents never saw them again. They never came home.”
..................................

Also you state that most Canadians would be content with a fair settlement over these land claims. What would you say is fair? Money? Land? Both? and would these settlements be final or would they be appealed a few years down the line when the bands involved run out of money?
.........................................
Those are questions you should be asking your MPP and MP. Those are government responsibilities. From what I have heard (and the government has said nothing yet officially) it will be available land (all Crown land is 'surrendered' Indigenous
land), and compensation for settled areas (towns, etc.) In the case of Caledonia, the government has said privately that Ontario will stand behind its property deeds - i.e., will pay the compensation for our properties.
Regarding your final statement ... now it is time for me to ask for proof: Prove that this has happened. (To save you time ... you won't be able to.) This is just another bit of propoganda used to denigrate Indigenous people in order to deny their rights and land titles.
As to whether the agreements are final, again that is a matter for the government and their legal advisors.
It is interesting to note that when the federal government took the Plank Road lands, (including DCE), it took them only 12 days to complete the 'sale' of those lands to the illegal Canadian squatters. It has taken them almost 200 years to even come to the table to discuss it with the Haudenosaunee, who never approved the surrender for sale, only for lease, and never received compensation for either.

[PJB]

Saga...A band in Northern Saskatchewan is asking for more land because it's population has grown since the treaties were signed. What is stopping them from demanding more in future settlements. It seems to me that the treaties state that all of these obligations that the crown has to the natives were for these ceded lands. I figure that as the cost of these obligations increases so should the amount of lands ceded not the other way around.

[saga]

I am not aware of that case. Can you give me a link?
Is it since the 'treaties' were signed ... or since the land was ceded?

[saga]

http://www.indianclaims.ca/claimsmap/sk_splash-en.asp

If you know the name of the band, you can look it up here.

Chances are they are reclaiming land ceded illegally. Six Nations also says they need more land for that reason, but they do have legal right to land they are reclaiming.

It is highly unlikely that the government will give them anything they are not legally entitled to. The government tendency is just the opposite.

[BartSimpson]

PJB PJB:

btw..You never did provide proof of those 50,000 that died in residential schools...Fact or Oral history?

Fantasy.

http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/gs/schl_e.html

$1:

It is estimated that approximately 100,000 children attended these schools over the years in which they were in operation.

Add to that the following:

http://www.irsr-rqpi.gc.ca/english/statistics.html

$1:

It is estimated there are 80,000 people alive today who attended Indian residential schools, according to Statistics Canada.

100,000 attended from the 1600's to 1996 - 80,000 still alive leaves 20,000. Even if *ALL* of those mortalities took place in the schools that's still 20% and not 50%.

Just these facts refute the 50% allegation.

There were German concentration camps that didn't have 50% mortality rates. Donau had a mortality rate of 30 in 1,000 that was actually less than the mortality rate in Europe in general during the war.

On the other side, latter day pre-adult aboriginals have a mortality rate 3.6 times that of other young Canadians.

http://www.niichro.com/injury_b/injury_b10.html

And a BC Health Canada site shows an infant mortality rate 20 times higher than Canada in general among Indians who refuse medical care. Here's a big huge on that figure. The freaking health care is FREE and they won't take it. Whatever.

So it stands to reason that over years past that a fair number of the Indian children who came into the Residential schools were in poor health when they arrived and it may even be argued that given the current high mortality rates of young and infant Indians that some of those children would have died had they NOT been taken to the schools.

Next, the Spanish Flu of 1918/1919 which killed mostly young people would've severely impacted Indian populations (in and out of the schools) in Canada just the same as it decimated Indian populations in the USA.

One thing I keep seeing is an allegation of high mortality rates at "some schools" but then none of the sources cite a specific scholl and then cite corresponding figures showing mortality rates in given years at given schools.

I wonder how much of that is hyperbole and how much is actual fact?

I wonder what the actual facts would say about mortality rates from preventable causes in the Residential Schools and then I wonder if the mortality rates for children in the schools actually exceeded the mortality rates of children who were not in the schools? Given current statistics I bet we'd find that of a given 1,000 children - fewer died in the schools than if they'd simply stayed at home to die instead.

Can't wait to be called a racist.

[saga]

It is estimated that approximately 100,000 children attended these schools over the years in which they were in operation.

..."Estimated" ... because the government never kept records and doesn't really know. Many of the former students trying to apply for the compensation are told there is no record of their attendance. The record keeping was left to the churches. Notice the quote above ... "some were not even registered" ... but they were there.

check the link above - turtle news, leading to hiddenfromhistory. The studies are there.
sorry gotta run

[BartSimpson]

$1:

Many of the former students trying to apply for the compensation are told there is no record of their attendance.

A good reason for that would be that they never actually attended such a school in the first place and they just want to get in line for a handout since the government is giving them away.

Nothing new under the sun, there.

I used to take part in the Stand Down for homeless veterans until it became such that the majority showing up for the event had no clue what an MOS was and when I asked what their serial number was they gave me a number that wasn't nine digits long. But they would all swear that they were in Vietnam. Even the guys my age who would've been about eight or nine to have served.

For the folks who attended, that's the business of your government to make amends if amends need to be made.

For the frauds, they should be prosecuted like anyone else who attempts to defraud the Canadian taxpayer (of which I am one).

I trust you support that latter statement, right?

[saga]

Duncan Campbell Scott was Superintendent of Indian Affairs Canada from 1913 to 1932. These are his thoughts ... which were a continuation of previous government thinking also reflected in government policies:

"I want to get rid of the Indian problem...Our objective is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada that has not been absorbed into the body politic and there is no Indian question and no Indian department."
(Duncan Campbell Scott, Deputy Superintendent of Indian Affairs from 1913-1932)


Nicholas Flood Davin Report of 1879 noted that "the industrial school is the principal feature of the policy known as that of 'aggressive civilization'....Indian culture is a contradiction in terms...they are uncivilized...the aim of education is to destroy the Indian."

"It is readily acknowledged that Indian children lose their natural resistance to illness by habituating so closely in the residential schools and that they die at a much higher rate than in their villages. But this does not justify a change in the policy of this Department which is geared towards a final solution of our Indian Problem."
(Duncan Campbell Scott)

However, it was not as "readily acknowledged" that some residential schools systematically put healthy children in bed with sick ones (TB, etc.).
For that info, you have to browse through the personal accounts at hiddenfromhistory. You will also find an account of student's records being dimped at sea. You will also fin, perhaps, accounts of babies born of rape that were killed. The CBC movie "Butterbox Babies" was about one such case. Port Alberni school info on hiddenfrom history contains another account.