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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:51 pm
 


DrCaleb wrote:
Freakinoldguy wrote:
There should be but to say these people didn't destroy anything is a stretch. They work in aid of people who quietly paid groups, people and advertising agencies to fight pipelines both east and west.

So'd I'd say there were instrumental in destroying the economy because if you can keep someone from legally selling their product eventually they'll go under which is what we're seeing happening to Alberta.


I know your cognitive bias leads you to think that, but we all know the actual causes. The courts, and Indigenous peoples.

Opposition groups are very important in a democratic society in order to keep things balanced. Which is why the pro Oil and Gas lobby goes after them so hard. If there were no opposition, then they could continue to write the environmental laws that favour business, and work against the environment and the citizens.

Environmental lobbies had very little to do with delays in O&G projects, or with eh O&G economy in general.


You're right. The Natives and the Courts are holding up pipelines but cognitive bias aside they're only part of the problem. Just follow the money and you'll see that there are environmental groups and natives being payed to take these challenges to court.

So it's alot more than just the courts and the natives which are the problems and it'll take alot more than just getting some bands to sign off before we see any pipleline anywhere especially since that for every high profile native that signs off another one will be bought off.

Quote:
After all, pipelines are turned down not because no one knows how to build them, and not even because they don’t get approved, but because of well-funded and highly-active political opposition.

The U.S.-based Tides Foundation, for example, directs funds to Canadian organizations such as Dogwood Initiative and Leadnow, both of whom featured prominently in the anti-pipeline protest on March 10th in Burnaby, and both of whom take an active role in B.C. elections, aiming to get pro-energy politicians out of office and anti-pipeline politicians elected.

Whose money is it that Tides pays out? And whose interests does it serve? What donor requests are being satisfied? This of course is the great unknown. Over the last few years Tides has granted $40 million to 100 Canadian anti-pipeline organizations who, in return, have done a fine job of constraining the Canadian economy and saving money for American buyers of Canadian oil.


https://business.financialpost.com/opin ... ood-reason


One more thing. People, groups and organizations don't do things like destroy another countries energy sector for no good reason. So they can deflect and claim that they don't know why this attack against us is happening but it's pretty apparent that it's got financial roots and the cheap price we're being paid for our oil might just be the "no good reason".


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:04 pm
 


Freakinoldguy wrote:
DrCaleb wrote:
Freakinoldguy wrote:
There should be but to say these people didn't destroy anything is a stretch. They work in aid of people who quietly paid groups, people and advertising agencies to fight pipelines both east and west.

So'd I'd say there were instrumental in destroying the economy because if you can keep someone from legally selling their product eventually they'll go under which is what we're seeing happening to Alberta.


I know your cognitive bias leads you to think that, but we all know the actual causes. The courts, and Indigenous peoples.

Opposition groups are very important in a democratic society in order to keep things balanced. Which is why the pro Oil and Gas lobby goes after them so hard. If there were no opposition, then they could continue to write the environmental laws that favour business, and work against the environment and the citizens.

Environmental lobbies had very little to do with delays in O&G projects, or with eh O&G economy in general.


You're right. The Natives and the Courts are holding up pipelines but cognitive bias aside they're only part of the problem. Just follow the money and you'll see that there are environmental groups and natives being payed to take these challenges to court.

So it's alot more than just the courts and the natives which are the problems and it'll take alot more than just getting some bands to sign off before we see any pipleline anywhere especially since that for every high profile native that signs off another one will be bought off.

Quote:
After all, pipelines are turned down not because no one knows how to build them, and not even because they don’t get approved, but because of well-funded and highly-active political opposition.

The U.S.-based Tides Foundation, for example, directs funds to Canadian organizations such as Dogwood Initiative and Leadnow, both of whom featured prominently in the anti-pipeline protest on March 10th in Burnaby, and both of whom take an active role in B.C. elections, aiming to get pro-energy politicians out of office and anti-pipeline politicians elected.

Whose money is it that Tides pays out? And whose interests does it serve? What donor requests are being satisfied? This of course is the great unknown. Over the last few years Tides has granted $40 million to 100 Canadian anti-pipeline organizations who, in return, have done a fine job of constraining the Canadian economy and saving money for American buyers of Canadian oil.


https://business.financialpost.com/opin ... ood-reason


One more thing. People, groups and organizations don't do things like destroy another countries energy sector for no good reason. So they can deflect and claim that they don't know why this attack against us is happening but it's pretty apparent that it's got financial roots and the cheap price we're being paid for our oil might just be the "no good reason".



First off the oil industry has more money at its disposal than all the world’s environmental charities put together. So let’s cut the crap about sinister environmental dark money beating up the poor helpless multinational oil corporations and their countless puppet groups and Astroturf campaigns.

Second even by your own links, your half-baked conspiracy theory can’t even come up with a full fleshed out story :
Quote:
Whose money is it that Tides pays out? And whose interests does it serve? What donor requests are being satisfied? This of course is the great unknown.


I can tell you whose money and whose interest are behind the pro-oil, pro-pollution conspiracies because it’s obvious (hint:oil companies and big polluters). You can’t answer the above questions because there is no conspiracy and an intelligent person would have figured that out already.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:12 am
 


Given that the media is persistently on the environmentalists side, without any critical examination done of any of their activities or funding at all, then both sides are about even. That propaganda constantly being done in their favour, for free too, more than matches whatever millions or billion O&G can put towards their own case.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:08 am
 


Thanos wrote:
Given that the media is persistently on the environmentalists side, without any critical examination done of any of their activities or funding at all, then both sides are about even. That propaganda constantly being done in their favour, for free too, more than matches whatever millions or billion O&G can put towards their own case.



Uh no. Oil and gas industry is one of the wealthiest and most politically powerful entities in the world. It dwarfs the size of most of the world’s governments let alone a handful of charities. Add to that other related fossil fuel interests like coal and petrochemical companies and you have a sinister and powerful cabal. Let’s not also forget that Russia is a major oil and gas producer and its industry is owned by the same oligarchs who contol the government. And then there’s the red carpet treatment afforded to Saudi and Gulf state leaders despite their horrific culture and supportive/blind eye approach to terrorism. I’ve never seen any environmentalists treated with anything other than public scorn by most governments just for having the audacity to ask for a little clean air and water and a little ethical behaviour from the multinational corporations. So let’s not pretend there’s any kind of equal playing field here.


But what “critical examination” of environmentalism is required? You guys can’t even come up with theory of who would be behind your alleged conspiracy. All you guys have is a lees than half-baked conspiracy theory with no suspect , no motive and no evidence of any wrongdoing Al you have is “oh these Canadian environmental charities get money from international charities,” Which is nothing unusual. The Canadian Red Cross gets funding from the international Red Cross. The Canadian Cancer Society gets funding from international counterparts. The spread of your flimsy conspiracy theory is predicated upon exploiting people’s ignorance of how the world works.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:14 am
 


Image


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:52 am
 


Hah! Hilarious! No one's ever heard that one before! LMFAO!

Here's another one to cheer you up, Beave. Just laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh! It's the (central) Canadian way!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:23 pm
 


Freakinoldguy wrote:
One more thing. People, groups and organizations don't do things like destroy another countries energy sector for no good reason. So they can deflect and claim that they don't know why this attack against us is happening but it's pretty apparent that it's got financial roots and the cheap price we're being paid for our oil might just be the "no good reason".


But, that is exactly what Capitalism does! Pay a little money to someone, so your product is worth more and you can sell it more. And you'll find the same companies paying to deny climate change in exactly the same manner and for the same reason.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:28 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
Hah! Hilarious! No one's ever heard that one before! LMFAO!

Here's another one to cheer you up, Beave. Just laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh! It's the (central) Canadian way!

Quote:
In one bleak week, almost 1,000 lost jobs


Been there done that got the T-shirt.

Ontario has experienced three recessions over the last four decades

Image



Welcome to the real world. We’ve been waiting for you


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:14 pm
 


Guess all those laid-off auto and manufacturing workers should have saved for a rainy day instead of spending all the money they made on toys.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:17 pm
 


Hey that's not a mere bitchy comment. We're going through the third round since I moved here. Down to ONE mill running with half the workers it had in 1988.
Both recoveries, that's EXACTLY what most people did. Last spring the adjacent street was flush with 40ft trailers, RVs, sleds, ATVs again as they came out of personal bankruptcies from the downturn before. Now the street is empty homes for sale, I looked at a 44ft Winnebago desperation sale for only $5000.
Too many people do exactly that, buy, buy, buy and don't plan.

And YOU buddy slap yourself out of it! I had a buddy got laid off back in 1983, big shot with HB Oil & Gas in Calgary. Lost his house. Moved back to Vancouver and moped for thirty years, his attitude poisoned almost every interview since. His Dad was a king shit with CP Rail, he expected to be as successful. A real downer to be with, even though he was a chick magnet, had a goddam apartment right down on the beach in the West End of Vancouver probably worth a couple million when he passed away. Don't be a him. Move if you have to, do what you have to and enjoy what you can. Fuck who's fault it is, you can only control YOU and not other shit.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:24 pm
 


BeaverFever wrote:

First off the oil industry has more money at its disposal than all the world’s environmental charities put together. So let’s cut the crap about sinister environmental dark money beating up the poor helpless multinational oil corporations and their countless puppet groups and Astroturf campaigns.

Second even by your own links, your half-baked conspiracy theory can’t even come up with a full fleshed out story :
Quote:
Whose money is it that Tides pays out? And whose interests does it serve? What donor requests are being satisfied? This of course is the great unknown.


I can tell you whose money and whose interest are behind the pro-oil, pro-pollution conspiracies because it’s obvious (hint:oil companies and big polluters). You can’t answer the above questions because there is no conspiracy and an intelligent person would have figured that out already.



But but but but BIG OIL
:roll:

Given your continual attack on the oil industries funding model and constant ignoring of the environmental movement's one leads me to believe you're either willfully blind or just plain anti western Canada.

It also shows that you're willing to overlook the payouts to the environmental groups to stop pipelines while vilifying the oil industry and ignoring the environmentalists less than ethical behaviour.

And, as far as conspiracies go, the oil industries money is out there in full view for all to see, not hidden away like alot of the environment groups funding.

And riddle me this. What does the amount of money someone or some group has, have to do with them being ethical? Oh wait, I've got it. It's obviously a case of "we don't have as much money as big oil to push our agenda so therefore we're more ethical".

To be honest that sounds like millennial logic. 8O


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:36 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
Hah! Hilarious! No one's ever heard that one before! LMFAO!

Here's another one to cheer you up, Beave. Just laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh! It's the (central) Canadian way!

he doesn't give a shit about us Albertans. He assumes that we all made money hand over fist during the boom. They don't care that a lot of support jobs (ie. Restraunt staff, small business, security, <insert thankless service job here>) has also been swept away. People who worked 2 jobs now work 5 or 6. They don't care that we're Canadian too. All they care about is fucking Alberta and fucking Oil and Gas.

You'll excuse me when I tell the rest of the country to go fuck it's self. The rest of the Nation that feels that Alberta is a bunch of rich people lamenting about a bygone time need to look at the little guy who is also being fucked by your cowardly and unpatriotic actions.

There used to be a time when there was a "Can" to Canada. But now we've become so regionalised that we fail to see all the little people that are being crushed in your self-gratifying war on the one thing that made us a first world nation.

This country is full of sanctimonious arrogant sycophants, and it makes me sick to think that a nation as great as this would sabotage it's self so egregiously.


Last edited by llama66 on Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:40 pm
 


llama66 wrote:
Thanos wrote:
Hah! Hilarious! No one's ever heard that one before! LMFAO!

Here's another one to cheer you up, Beave. Just laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh! It's the (central) Canadian way!

he doesn't give a shit about us Albertans. He assumes that we all made money hand over fist during the boom. They don't care that a lot of support jobs (ie. Restraunt staff, small business, security, <insert thankless service job here>) has also been swept away. They don't care that we're Canadian too. All they care about is fucking Alberta and fucking Oil and Gas.


Image

All I'd like to know is why they're so resistant to understanding that in times like these all their patented sneering and scolding DOESN'T FUCKING HELP! And that, in fact, it makes the overall meta that much worse to endure. Serious, why in the fuck are so many of them like this? :?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:29 am
 


Thanos wrote:
All I'd like to know is why they're so resistant to understanding that in times like these all their patented sneering and scolding DOESN'T FUCKING HELP! And that, in fact, it makes the overall meta that much worse to endure. Serious, why in the fuck are so many of them like this? :?

I would say a combination of stupidity and a cult-like mentality. As Llama said, this country is so full of sanctimonious assholes that are high off the smell of their own farts. Most of these environmental groups do not need the money of Big Oil to get what they want. All they have to do is massage the ego of Joe Canuck and he would be ready to sell his children into prostitution.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:12 pm
 


FieryVulpine wrote:
Thanos wrote:
All I'd like to know is why they're so resistant to understanding that in times like these all their patented sneering and scolding DOESN'T FUCKING HELP! And that, in fact, it makes the overall meta that much worse to endure. Serious, why in the fuck are so many of them like this? :?

I would say a combination of stupidity and a cult-like mentality. As Llama said, this country is so full of sanctimonious assholes that are high off the smell of their own farts. Most of these environmental groups do not need the money of Big Oil to get what they want. All they have to do is massage the ego of Joe Canuck and he would be ready to sell his children into prostitution.


Unfortunately, assholes like Denis Conderre play right into that mentality.

Jen Gerson writes all about the more general feeling, one reminiscent of the view some American leftists have of 'deplorables' who apparently are too stupid to know their own interests.

And then there were the environmentalists who openly admitted to trying to shut down our oil and gas industry, showing that their critics were right all along!

There's another side to it, though. Growing up here during the oil booms, I read and saw the attitudes that some of us displayed towards the ROC ourselves. We were the ones acting like our shit didn't stink and that we were better than the rest of the country, rubbing other Canadians' noses in our good fortune. Guys like Tom Flanagan, Barry Cooper and Ezra Levant were examples of this in our intelligentsia.

And what do we do with other countries planning to phase out fossil fuel-powered vehicles and banks and investment groups divesting themselves of oilsands resources? Is our energy war room supposed to lobby against things like that? Or is it that we're getting burned by the free market too?

And for what it's worth, Quebec Finance Minister Eric Girard wrote a piece in the Financial Post describing how Quebec now gets about 50% of its oil resources from Western Canada since the reversal of Enbridge Line 9B. Girard also wrote about Quebec's financial reforms being expected to diminish its share of equalization in the coming years, its support of our opposition to Bill C-69 and our desire to change equalization, and even to become a 'have' province itself in the coming years.

Maybe Girard is just blowing smoke, but if he isn't then maybe things could change for the better. I know it's a long shot, but I'll go for anything I can these days.


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