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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:31 am
 


Thanos wrote:
Tricks wrote:
Thanos wrote:

That the provincial government has been a terrible manager and administrator of all that wealth doesn't negate the fact that Albertans have been robbed blind by the federal government of this country.

They also voted overwhelmingly for the guy who made the current formula.


Trudeau and Morneau could have changed the formula in their first term. Instead they froze it for another five years. It's not written in stone so it can be changed by any sitting government should they choose to do so.

The Quebec provincial government has been crowing quite loudly lately about how they're running a surplus of over $4 billion dollars. Despite being in the black now Trudeau & Morneau quietly gave Quebec another $1.4 billion equalization boost a couple of weeks after the election. Reward the base first. Despite everything ALWAYS reward the base first.

Basing equalization payments of the surplus/deficit of provinces would be dumb as fuck. There would be no positive to run a surplus and provinces would actively try to run deficits to get equalization payments.

And if Alberta didn't have a problem with it when Harper did it, they shouldn't have a problem with it now right?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:08 am
 


DrCaleb wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:

I don’t think you’re understanding though. Those federal tax dollars you would have paid even if there was no equalization. Equalization is a federal spending program A Quebecker pays the same federal taxes you do and so pays just as much into equalization as you do. The idea that Albertans would somehow have more money if not for equalization is false.


Except that redistribution of those tax dollars is not equal. The federal government redistributes that money based on the Equalization Formula, and that formula means that provinces who have good economies get less Federal goodies than Provinces that have worse economies. And Quebec is always a recipient, and Alberta is never one.

So, while we would have to pay the same, we would receive more in things like Infrastructure spending, and EI retraining programs, if the newest Equalization formula had not been signed by Prime Minister . . Harper.



Of course it’s not equal. What would be the point of that, you would just be taking money and giving it right back where it came from. Money is spent where it’s needed that’s the whole point of the program. I’m all for increasing infrastructure and EI spending generally speaking.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:38 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:
Rich people don’t get welfare. Able-bodied people don’t get disability benefits. Young people don’t get retirement benefits. Equalization by definition is about redistribution to where it’s needed.


Equalization isn't welfare. It's aim to help out provinces that are having a bad go of it, not to discourage them from progress at all. Quebec is #2 in per capita GDP. Why are they getting the 'welfare' cheques from the feds?

Because the secret part of the formula is that Resource Revenue is 50% of the calculation! So provinces with resources are always 'have' and Provinces without are always 'have not'. And there is no incentive for Quebec to develop it's oil resources, because it will always be the beneficiary of more Federal funds than it's GDP would suggest.

BeaverFever wrote:
Of course it’s not equal. What would be the point of that, you would just be taking money and giving it right back where it came from. Money is spent where it’s needed that’s the whole point of the program. I’m all for increasing infrastructure and EI spending generally speaking.


So why don't the provinces that generate the income get an equal share in the spending? Where is the incentive for the second most populous and wealthy province, Quebec, to stop the welfare train?

https://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/mtp-eng.asp

Why does the idea of Equalization never help out a Province with natural resources, even in the time when resource revenues plummet? No matter how bad it gets, Newfoundland and Labrador, Saskatchewan and Alberta will never get more from Federation than they give, no matter how bad the economy gets. PEI, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Quebec will always receive.

And don't bullshit me about Nova Scotias' offshore oil. It's protected from equalization calculations.

Quote:
The 2005 arrangement provides the following benefits to Nova Scotia:

100 per cent protection from Equalization reductions resulting from the inclusion of offshore revenues in the Equalization program for eight years (from 2004-05 to 2011-12) as long as Nova Scotia receives Equalization payments.
An upfront payment of $830 million, made in 2005, to allow the province immediate flexibility to address its unique fiscal challenges. This is a pre-payment in respect of the new 100 per cent protection.
Should it no longer qualify for Equalization during that eight-year period, Nova Scotia will be provided with transitional payments comparable to those paid to Newfoundland and Labrador under the terms of the 1985 Atlantic Accord.
In addition, this arrangement provides for a further eight-year extension if the province receives Equalization in 2010-11 or 2011-12 and its per capita net debt has not become lower than at least four other provinces.
During the second eight-year period, if the province no longer qualifies for Equalization, it would receive transitional payments for two years:
In the first year, the transitional payment would equal two-thirds of the offset payment it received the previous year.
In the second year, the transitional payment would equal one-third of the offset payment the province was entitled to the last year it received Equalization.
The province could requalify for offsets and transitional payments if it again became eligible to receive Equalization payments.


https://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/nsa-eng.asp

Where is the fairness?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalizat ... _in_Canada

Thanos wrote:
The Quebec provincial government has been crowing quite loudly lately about how they're running a surplus of over $4 billion dollars. Despite being in the black now Trudeau & Morneau quietly gave Quebec another $1.4 billion equalization boost a couple of weeks after the election. Reward the base first. Despite everything ALWAYS reward the base first.


And fuck the rest of us.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:47 am
 


Thanos wrote:

Trudeau and Morneau could have changed the formula in their first term. Instead they froze it for another five years. It's not written in stone so it can be changed by any sitting government should they choose to do so.

AND Steve could have also done it in his last term. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the oil crisis started before the last election.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:53 am
 


It is a bit weird that NL can be a ‘have’ province while heading steadily towards ruin. Stephen Harper, no slouch in the numeracy department, once announced he had finally figured out all the details of equalization. What chance does that give an average knucklehead like moi?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:36 pm
 


DrCaleb wrote:

Thanos wrote:
The Quebec provincial government has been crowing quite loudly lately about how they're running a surplus of over $4 billion dollars. Despite being in the black now Trudeau & Morneau quietly gave Quebec another $1.4 billion equalization boost a couple of weeks after the election. Reward the base first. Despite everything ALWAYS reward the base first.


And fuck the rest of us.


They've had a government for four years that went out of it's way to dismantle everything Stephen Harper did, acting especially fast to get rid of any oversight over crooked Native band councils and foreign "charities" dumping money into Canada to sabotage & destroy the O&G sector. The quite literally talk about Harper like he's Sauron, some kind of ultra-demon who is the definition of pure evil. Yet they just can't get around to re-examining an equalization formula that Harper revised, even though it's entirely in their governmental power to do so any time they want to. And, even more so, in a moment when equalization should be sent to a province that's been clobbered economically since 2015, they instead freeze the Harper revisions for another five years in order to ensure that no funds will be diverted from a Quebec running a surplus to a place that desperately needs the help.

Remember that time Grant Hill yelled out in Question Period that talking to Liberals when they get like this is like trying to talk to a fucking fence post? Yeah, this is another one of those moments. And they then have the gall to sit back and say they just don't understand where all the frustration and rage is coming from, here in their Trudeaupia, where everything is just so never-endingly squee. Never gonna end with them. It's never going to fucking end.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:13 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
DrCaleb wrote:
Quote:
To even imply that support of the energy industry or even agreement with government could become a criterion for determining whether an organization receives funding comes, we suggest, dangerously close to government direction of speech and thought.


That's exactly how it was designed.


Sorry, but there is no greater black vs white issue in this country right now. If they're trying to shut us down then they're our enemies, period. This is a war for existential economic survival. Any charity that works to cause more harm to Albertans should probably leave this province altogether and go to Vancouver or Central Canada and set up shop in an environment where they'd be more comfortable around many more of those who think the exact same way. As the old saying goes don't shit where you eat and then complain about the taste of the food.

I don't like having to think this way but this is the new reality. They're either with us or against us. There is no in-between to be had anymore. They launched this war on us with absolutely zero consideration or concern for the effects their activities would cause on the people who live and work here. That they whine about incivility or impoliteness being directed at them, after they deliberately chose to take this course of action, is just too nauseatingly cute for words.

Agreed in total, Thanos. R=UP


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:15 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
DrCaleb wrote:

Thanos wrote:
The Quebec provincial government has been crowing quite loudly lately about how they're running a surplus of over $4 billion dollars. Despite being in the black now Trudeau & Morneau quietly gave Quebec another $1.4 billion equalization boost a couple of weeks after the election. Reward the base first. Despite everything ALWAYS reward the base first.


And fuck the rest of us.


They've had a government for four years that went out of it's way to dismantle everything Stephen Harper did, acting especially fast to get rid of any oversight over crooked Native band councils and foreign "charities" dumping money into Canada to sabotage & destroy the O&G sector. The quite literally talk about Harper like he's Sauron, some kind of ultra-demon who is the definition of pure evil. Yet they just can't get around to re-examining an equalization formula that Harper revised, even though it's entirely in their governmental power to do so any time they want to. And, even more so, in a moment when equalization should be sent to a province that's been clobbered economically since 2015, they instead freeze the Harper revisions for another five years in order to ensure that no funds will be diverted from a Quebec running a surplus to a place that desperately needs the help.

Remember that time Grant Hill yelled out in Question Period that talking to Liberals when they get like this is like trying to talk to a fucking fence post? Yeah, this is another one of those moments. And they then have the gall to sit back and say they just don't understand where all the frustration and rage is coming from, here in their Trudeaupia, where everything is just so never-endingly squee. Never gonna end with them. It's never going to fucking end.


R=UP R=UP


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:02 pm
 


You don’t get equalization payments when your province has the highest incomes in the country and the lowest taxes. It has nothing to do with oil or resources or anything else. Equalization is not a subsidy for anti-tax conservatives to get someone else to pay their bills for them. It’s support for provinces that can’t generate sufficient funds through their own taxes.

Quote:
So a province like Alberta that does not have a provincial sales tax is considered to have much more room to increase its tax revenue than a province like Quebec, which has a relatively high provincial sales tax.

The same can be said for provincial income tax levels. The equalization formula takes into consideration how much income a province has to tax. According to Statistics Canada, Alberta's median household taxable income in 2015 was $93,835, the highest in the country, compared to Quebec's median of $59,822, one of the lowest.

The federal government could ... do a lot to help Alberta and Saskatchewan but not through equalization — Daniel Béland, McGill University
With Alberta having a very low provincial income tax, compared to other provinces, the equalization program considers Alberta as having a high fiscal capacity, or an ability to increase taxes, and therefore is deemed not in need of assistance from the federal government. At least not before it raises tax levels to be more in line with the rest of the country.

"Even if you remove natural resources from the equation Alberta will not receive equalization payments, they are just way above the average. There is just no way that they would receive equalization." said Daniel Béland, a political science professor at McGill University in Montreal


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5362056


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:05 pm
 


How come Quebec's economy is so crappy that even after decades of receiving hundreds of billions of dollars they still need to receive equalization payments at all?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:06 pm
 


Hmm the idea that the taxes you pay the gov't is still yours isn't good enough. Now it's the federal taxes collected out of your province still belongs to the province, just so you can make it "appear" you're being ripped off.
Already sick of hearing that bullshit.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:08 pm
 


Shush, Herb. The grown-ups are talking.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:35 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
How come Quebec's economy is so crappy that even after decades of receiving hundreds of billions of dollars they still need to receive equalization payments at all?


Or same for the other 6 have not provinces: Manitoba, Sask and the maritimes. They just don’t have what it takes.Yet. But it’s not because they’re not taxing enough. Only Alberta has been collecting relatively low taxes

Ironically, Albertans low provincial tax is working against equalization because the equalization formula is based on the average if taxes applied by provinces.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:18 pm
 


FieryVulpine wrote:
Shush, Herb. The grown-ups are talking.

Nothing intelligent to add? Didn't think so.

Simply explain to me how when you didn't pay one cent more in federal income tax than I did "because you live in Alberta", your complaint seems to always circle to the same issue.
Quebec doesn't get a nickel of "your money". It seems to get an unfair portion of "Our" money. But Alberta's the only place they bitch about it, endlessly.
When Alberta's ACTUALLY as economically fucked up as half the members on this board claim, it would get transfer payments too.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:25 pm
 


BeaverFever wrote:
Ironically, Albertans low provincial tax is working against equalization because the equalization formula is based on the average if taxes applied by provinces.


How do you know? The actual Equalization formula is not published.

If it were fair, it would be open and apparent to the taxpayers.


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