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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:46 pm
 


BeaverFever wrote:
It is fake news.


Under normal circumstances I might agree with you (not always on board with CTV) but in this case all you've got is dueling opinions. A right wing think tank in Fraser versus a Progressive Socialist think tank in Broadbent. The Toronto Red Star versus CTV.

I glanced over both sides and I'm still more convinced by Fraser. I find the Socialist argument to be more surface, sleight of hand niggles not very well thought out and easy to counter.

Here's one for you. They post about how Canadian taxes compare with other countries.

Now I don't know all the complexities of what would be involved with getting a holistic evaluation of how that might affect this particular issue beyond using GDP (don't trust it) but I know this:

It's cheaper to buy stuff in America even though the American dollar is worth more.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:05 pm
 


Freakinoldguy wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:

Umm hate to break it to ya but CTF is not a “watchdog agency”. It’s a right wing lobby group privately funded to the tune of millions per year by unnamed, undisclosed donors and wholly controlled by a board of directors consisting of five people.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3802441

It also gets funding from US-based right wing groups.
https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2018/07/05/C ... ation-Get/

But wait, haven’t we heard from conservatives that US environmental groups providing funds to Canadian environmental groups is somehow illegal or inappropriate? Conservative Jason Kenney recently announced a witch-hunt into the alleged “foreign funding “ of Canadian environmental groups. I guess that’s another one of the conservatives ‘ made-up unwritten crimes that’s only exists when liberals do it.



So, I'll ask you the same question I asked herbie. Can you prove their numbers are wrong or that this all just some "right wing conspiracy" to make the Liberals look bad?


Yeah I posted an article that details all the flaws in their methodology, including adding taxes and resource royalties paid by corporations - not families - to the average family’s tax bill and using the mean tax return instead of the median to skew the tax numbers upward. Don’t you think it’s hypocritical of you and Fiddle to demand a line-by-line rebuttal and then when you receive one instead of responding on kind you simply dismiss ot because you don’t like the source? That’s a standard Fiddle tactic but I thought you were above that Well heres some more detail on the FI’s junk math:

https://www.policyalternatives.ca/publi ... ts-reality


https://pressprogress.ca/dont-listen-to ... s-of-life/

Also it’s not a right wing plot to “make liberals look bad”, the Fraser Institute ran these same reports when Harper was in charge. It’s a right wing plot to enrich corporations and the 1% by abolishing taxes, privatizing public services, and defunding regulators, which in the long run will turn this place into a third world country.

Quote:
Also, if you read the last line of my post you'd have notice the term gov'ts. Which denotes all of them because, TBH none of them have been stalwart stewards of our tax dollars since the day these modern day ponzi artists figured out that they could get us to give them our money and then give it back to us in dribs and drabs after they finished with their pet projects. [/
Quote:

^ empty rhetoric. Go travel around some third world countries and come back and tell me you get nothing for your tax dollars. :roll:

Quote:
But, since you brought it up, could you explain how the fuck can the current gov't morally justify promising 9 billion dollars to Sub Saharan Africa and give financial aid to countries like China while denying, seniors and veterans increased and earned benefits,


False argument. Governments have many jobs for example to fight crime and to fill potholes. Complaining that the government should not be filling potholes until all crime is ended is asinine. Foreign aid is part of a foreign policy agenda. Seniors and veterans are are part of a domestic social agenda. The former has nothing to do with the latter. Also the Harper government is the one that stripped benefits from veterans, the current government enhanced them, although not all the way back to pre-Harper levels.

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while screwing the middle class by eliminating tax breaks and increasing the tax burdens on average Canadians?
. Fake news.

Quote:
Hey I get it. You guys can't refute the numbers so you attack the messenger which is fair enough.
. Um no I did refute the numbers and YOUR response to that was to attack the messenger.


Quote:
It' still doesn't change the fact that our country is going backwards when it comes to financing our infrastructure, our health care, our social programs and our national debt all the while increasing the tax burden on he rest of us while ensuring our great grand children will be paying for the previous gov'ts largess. [B-o]


Explain to me how you think cutting taxes will finance infrastructure, health care etc. It’s the decafes of fucking austerity of the Chretien-Martin centrists and conservatives who created this massive social deficit to begin with. Yet somehow you think cutting taxes and spending less will fix the problem ? If your car is breaking down, does spending less on maintenance fix the problem?

Maintaining first world living standards is not “largess” and our great great grandchildren will probably be quite happy to have been born into a country that’s not been turned into a third world shithole where everything is broken beyond repair because some long-gone corporations and rich assholes a century earlier decided to keep everything for themselves and fuck everyone else. That’s actual largess.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:07 pm
 


N_Fiddledog wrote:

It's cheaper to buy stuff in America even though the American dollar is worth more.


That’s got nothing to do with taxes genius that’s due to economies of scale. Or are you not familiar with that concept?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:33 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:
N_Fiddledog wrote:

It's cheaper to buy stuff in America even though the American dollar is worth more.


That’s got nothing to do with taxes genius that’s due to economies of scale. Or are you not familiar with that concept?


It's not all economics of scale. Example, last time I was down in the states I bought a Vortex Venom red dot scope.

My cost $219.00 US out of the door. Approx $290 Can

Same scope in Canada $359 Can + $46 HST = $405

Big difference which can't be all due to economics of scale. Same for many items.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:35 am
 


PluggyRug wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:
N_Fiddledog wrote:

It's cheaper to buy stuff in America even though the American dollar is worth more.


That’s got nothing to do with taxes genius that’s due to economies of scale. Or are you not familiar with that concept?


It's not all economics of scale. Example, last time I was down in the states I bought a Vortex Venom red dot scope.

My cost $219.00 US out of the door. Approx $290 Can

Same scope in Canada $359 Can + $46 HST = $405

Big difference which can't be all due to economics of scale. Same for many items.

The discrepancy in the base price is probably due to logistics of having one of the largest countries with a sparse population in relation to the U.S. A warehouse in the center of texas will supply almost as many people as all of Canada.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:30 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:
N_Fiddledog wrote:

It's cheaper to buy stuff in America even though the American dollar is worth more.


That’s got nothing to do with taxes genius that’s due to economies of scale. Or are you not familiar with that concept?


It has almost everything to do with taxes. They even factor into economies of scale. You drop my jaw trying to imagine how much basic common sense you'd have to ignore not to immediately know that.

Taxes are embedded in the price of everything. Higher taxes to providers are passed on to consumers. If I was going to go to the trouble of going through your Socialist think tank's counters to rebut them you'd hear a lot about that.

There are other factors, of course, but when I'm trying to figure out why I pay so much more for gas than everybody else in North America I balance all those factors out and the one that always rises to the top is high taxes. Economy of scale would be down there on the bottom.

And the price of energy also factors into everything. See how that works?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:19 am
 


Tricks wrote:
PluggyRug wrote:
It's not all economics of scale. Example, last time I was down in the states I bought a Vortex Venom red dot scope.

My cost $219.00 US out of the door. Approx $290 Can

Same scope in Canada $359 Can + $46 HST = $405

Big difference which can't be all due to economics of scale. Same for many items.

The discrepancy in the base price is probably due to logistics of having one of the largest countries with a sparse population in relation to the U.S. A warehouse in the center of texas will supply almost as many people as all of Canada.


To some extent yes, however I did contact Vortex Canada at the time to inquire about the higher cost, they said mainly due to higher taxation for transport and salaries and business taxes.

Lowest price for the Venom was Amazon.ca (when on sale) but still have add HST.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:06 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:

Explain to me how you think cutting taxes will finance infrastructure, health care etc. It’s the decafes of fucking austerity of the Chretien-Martin centrists and conservatives who created this massive social deficit to begin with. Yet somehow you think cutting taxes and spending less will fix the problem ? If your car is breaking down, does spending less on maintenance fix the problem?

Maintaining first world living standards is not “largess” and our great great grandchildren will probably be quite happy to have been born into a country that’s not been turned into a third world shithole where everything is broken beyond repair because some long-gone corporations and rich assholes a century earlier decided to keep everything for themselves and fuck everyone else. That’s actual largess.


First off I didn't mention cutting taxes you did and I didn't mention the Fraser institute that's your argument with someone else? I used the numbers from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation which i'm still waiting for you to refute. Not the methodology they use but the numbers because, methodology of fact gathering can be altered to suit a political agenda.


But anyway, here we go and for the record I'm not going to try and sort out the argument you made by individually quoting and responding to every paragraph I posted. 8O

I'm pissed about successive gov'ts blowing our tax dollars like a drunken hooker with a stolen credit card. So your claim that if you don't spend money on repairs things fall apart is accurate, but wrong.

You can't spend money you don't have and if you've given your tax dollars away to some third world shithole you have one option left to fix your own issues. Raise taxes. But it would be much more fiscally prudent just to reallocate your current resources to reflect your own needs and not the needs of other countries.

In essence it's take care of your own first, not last and then if you have money left you can give to others. But, since you appear to disagree with that theory of economics let me ask. How much of your income do you give to your neighbours families so the fathers can go out drinking, buy new cars or squirrel it away so, when the wife kicks him out he's got a tidy sum to live off of because, that's what we're doing when we give money unregulated to third world shitholes?

Oh wait, the Canadian gov't is now going to monitor our tax dollar donations to other countries so the evil little shits and their cronies running these countries don't misuse them. ROTFL

How about this. If they really wanted to ensure our tax dollars weren't being misused and actually doing some good maybe they should start at home by reinstating the First Nations Accountability Act.

But wait, it's just another case of Liberal hypocrisy. We'll try to make sure the people and not just the ruling class in places like Sub Saharan Africa get the money like their supposed to but fuck Canadians like Charmaine Stick and her friends.

https://aptnnews.ca/2019/08/08/onion-la ... rency-law/

Onward and upward. For the record I never said cutting corporate or personal taxes was a key to fiscal freedom because without fair taxes we'd be in real trouble. I also agree that corporations are paying far to little in taxes which passes the tax burden onto Canada's middle class but here's the conundrum.

The problem with corporations and large companies is globalization. Ever since these large Corporations found that they can maximize profits by moving their factories and operations to third world shitholes and pay their employees nothing compared to do what a North American worker costs they're holding the trump card.

Their mantra is simple but effective. "Raise our taxes and we move, interfere in our business we move, over regulate us and we move". So, given the number of jobs and tax dollars we'd lose if we tried to tax them at a rate that's anywhere near fair makes that proposition untenable. Don't believe me? Just look at the cities and towns where the main industries have walked and you'll see that fairly taxing these entities can lead to more heartache, grief and less income than if you didn't them at all.

Let me give you an example about how I see taxing these big corporations works. Walmart collects donations for various charities from their customers, no problem but, really how much money does Walmart actually donate? So, if we all demanded that Walmart paid all the monies to the charities without getting it from their customers, how many charities would be shit out of luck because Walmart just wouldn't do it? So sadly everyone is happy to let Walmart take the credit for donating this money while the reality is something totally different.

Anyway this post has gotten longer than politicians expense account so, let me give you the CliffsNotes of my tax argument.

Stop giving our money away to other countries and then raising taxes while claiming poverty, it's bullshit and a misuse of our tax dollars;

Don't financially mortgage our countries financial future by borrowing money only to give it away;

Stop funding things we don't need as a country till all our major issues are fixed and that includes health care, social programs and infrastructure;

Stop using the Canadian Taxpayer as a fucking piggy bank with no bottom so you can do all of the above and finally i'll throw this one in;

Initiate a fair Federal Gov't recall process so we can get rid of the hogs at the trough who are the biggest offenders, Prime Ministers included.

Simple isn't it?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:50 am
 


Yeah that's like back in 1993, I bought a 6HP Evinrude in Prince George because it was $1299 instead of $1699 at the local outdoor shop. A few weeks later I was in Costco in Portland and it was on the wall for $399 ($533 Cdn + $91 duty = $624)
Musta been the fucking TAXES, right?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:11 pm
 


herbie wrote:
Yeah that's like back in 1993, I bought a 6HP Evinrude in Prince George because it was $1299 instead of $1699 at the local outdoor shop. A few weeks later I was in Costco in Portland and it was on the wall for $399 ($533 Cdn + $91 duty = $624)
Musta been the fucking TAXES, right?


[huh]


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:30 pm
 


PluggyRug wrote:
Tricks wrote:
PluggyRug wrote:
It's not all economics of scale. Example, last time I was down in the states I bought a Vortex Venom red dot scope.

My cost $219.00 US out of the door. Approx $290 Can

Same scope in Canada $359 Can + $46 HST = $405

Big difference which can't be all due to economics of scale. Same for many items.

The discrepancy in the base price is probably due to logistics of having one of the largest countries with a sparse population in relation to the U.S. A warehouse in the center of texas will supply almost as many people as all of Canada.


To some extent yes, however I did contact Vortex Canada at the time to inquire about the higher cost, they said mainly due to higher taxation for transport and salaries and business taxes.

Lowest price for the Venom was Amazon.ca (when on sale) but still have add HST.

Interesting that salaries seemed to play a factor.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:34 pm
 


PluggyRug wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:
N_Fiddledog wrote:

It's cheaper to buy stuff in America even though the American dollar is worth more.


That’s got nothing to do with taxes genius that’s due to economies of scale. Or are you not familiar with that concept?


It's not all economics of scale. Example, last time I was down in the states I bought a Vortex Venom red dot scope.

My cost $219.00 US out of the door. Approx $290 Can

Same scope in Canada $359 Can + $46 HST = $405

Big difference which can't be all due to economics of scale. Same for many items.


That’s economies of scale. Larger market means more competition and also means more units produced, shipped and sold, which means the cost per individual unit is less.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:46 pm
 


Freakinoldguy wrote:
bootlegga wrote:
R=UP

I'd rep if I could.



Sorry but the Star is a left wing publication so, given the current criteria on this forum for what's to be considered a believable source they don't qualify and should be ignored. :wink:

Unfortunately I've come to the conclusion that arguing taxes is like arguing gov't policy. If you're one of the lucky ones who's getting what you want from them they're great but, if you're one of the unlucky ones not getting what you want from them then, not so much.


The Red Star is undoubtably left wing and I don't generally trust them, but their analysis of the dubious methodology of the Frasier Institute is spot on. Every year they issue this and add corporate taxes, tariffs/duties and other costs of doing business to the 'average Canadian's tax bill.

That is pure bollox.

If you don't like the Red Star's analysis, check out the OECD and see how Canada compares to the US (or anyone else for that matter).

https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-database/

In Canada, an average two earner couple/2 child pays 24.1% of their income in income taxes. In the US, the same couple pays 23.9%.

I think the health care and social safety net we have is well worth the .2% more that we pay.

Yes, we pay other taxes (consumption, gas, etc.) but in the US, most of the things we pay taxes for are user fees in the form of co-pays, toll highways, deductibles, etc.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but IMHO, our system is a much better and fairer system for the average person. Not only that, but Canada routinely ranks in the bottom quarter of OECD countries for taxation.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:47 pm
 


BeaverFever wrote:
Also it’s not a right wing plot to “make liberals look bad”, the Fraser Institute ran these same reports when Harper was in charge. It’s a right wing plot to enrich corporations and the 1% by abolishing taxes, privatizing public services, and defunding regulators, which in the long run will turn this place into a third world country.


^ This, so this!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:51 pm
 


Tricks wrote:
PluggyRug wrote:
Tricks wrote:
The discrepancy in the base price is probably due to logistics of having one of the largest countries with a sparse population in relation to the U.S. A warehouse in the center of texas will supply almost as many people as all of Canada.


To some extent yes, however I did contact Vortex Canada at the time to inquire about the higher cost, they said mainly due to higher taxation for transport and salaries and business taxes.

Lowest price for the Venom was Amazon.ca (when on sale) but still have add HST.


Interesting that salaries seemed to play a factor.


There are lots of factors in why prices in the US are cheaper like reduced costs for marketing/advertising, administration, tariffs/duties (yes somethings still get taxed at the border under NAFTA/USMCA), etc.


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