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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:43 am
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Guys like Tricks don't have a hard-on for teachers, they just don't appreciate being used as a pawn so teachers can pad their wallets in the guise of "doing it all for the kids"

That's the bargaining power, isn't it? "That's just the way she goes, Ricky, fucking way she goes." You can't change the reality of the situation. But none of the Ontario strikes over the past 30 years had anything to do with wallet padding. Teachers in Ontario haven't had a raise above the cost of living in 30 years. Any wallet padding was enjoyed by teachers long retired.

But just for perspective, what do you think a teacher SHOULD be paid? What number would you view as fair? We agree that they deserve to be paid, right? What do you think the average salary is among Ontario teachers?


Personally, I think it's shameful to use children as your bargaining chip.

I think teachers should be paid well and fairly, and I think they are. I have a friend that dropped into a Toronto school fresh out of school and sits at ~50k.

According to McGuinty, if I recall correctly, an elementary school teacher makes an average of 90k with salary and benefits with 12 weeks of vacation. They also get a 3% raise this year.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:02 am
 


jeff744 jeff744:
Considering the fact that BC is several times more expensive to live in than Saskatchewan, how is it right that they make almost the exact same?

Minimum wage in BC... 9.50
Minimum wage in Saskatchewan... 9.50

Does Wallmart pay their employees more in BC, does Timmies?
Do Federal employees in BC get paid more?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:18 am
 


Chrispie Clark - 190k +
Bard Wall - 150K+

MLA BC - 100k +
Sask _ 87K +


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:21 am
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Personally, I think it's shameful to use children as your bargaining chip.

What else are they to do? They withdraw their services, the same as any other group refusing to work. And are they really using children as their bargaining chip or are they using the parents? It's the parents who are being inconvenienced. Maybe if the public viewed the teachers as teachers instead of babysitters, that attitude would be different.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:
I think teachers should be paid well and fairly, and I think they are. I have a friend that dropped into a Toronto school fresh out of school and sits at ~50k.

A little, less in most boards, around $45K with an honours BA, if you get a fulltime contract. About 1 new teacher in 20 gets a fulltime contract in year one. Most are on either 1/3 or 2/3 contracts, longterm occassional (ie. maternity leave subs) or occassional teaching (substitute). It takes an average of 5 years teaching before a new teacher even gets on the full-time pay grid.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:
According to McGuinty, if I recall correctly, an elementary school teacher makes an average of 90k with salary and benefits with 12 weeks of vacation. They also get a 3% raise this year.

Not even close. The top of the grid, after 11 years teaching experience get $90K. But only about half the teachers in the province are at the top of the grid. The average is more like $65K and that's only if we count those teaching fulltime. If we factor in those who are on part-time contracts and LTOs, the average falls even more. No teachers in Ontario one getting a 3% raise this year. Most got about 4% over the three year term of the last collective agreements. And teachers don't get 12 weeks vacation, they get 3 weeks...the rest are months. :lol:

edits for formatting errors


Last edited by Lemmy on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:23 am
 


Just to bring it back to BC - the rates here are substantially lower than in Ont.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:34 am
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
A little, less in most boards, around $45K with an honours BA, if you get a fulltime contract. About 1 new teacher in 20 gets a fulltime contract in year one. Most are on either 1/3 or 2/3 contracts, longterm occassional (ie. maternity leave subs) or occassional teaching (substitute). It takes an average of 5 years teaching before a new teacher even gets on the full-time pay grid.

Not even close. The top of the grid, after 11 years teaching experience get $90K. But only about half the teachers in the province are at the top of the grid. The average is more like $65K and that's only if we count those teaching fulltime. If we factor in those who are on part-time contracts and LTOs, the average falls even more. No teachers in Ontario one getting a 3% raise this year. Most got about 4% over the three year term of the last collective agreements. And teachers don't get 12 weeks vacation, they get 3 weeks...the rest are months. :lol:

edits for formatting errors


It was a 4 year contract. Here in Durham Region, they got 10% over 4 years.

Contract is up this year....what are the chances we see a strike due to the government holding on wage increases?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:04 pm
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Contract is up this year....what are the chances we see a strike due to the government holding on wage increases?

My best guess would be zero. I don't predict any strikes in Ontario.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:24 pm
 


andyt andyt:
I don't follow your logic. CEOs are always arguing that company B pays theirs more so they need a top up, why shouldn't that apply to teachers?


It does apply to the teachers. If they want to earn more money then they should go to school, add to their skills, and become a corporate CEO.

But demanding that tax payers who earn less than the teachers pay more taxes to help teachers earn even more is absurd.

Ironically, here's the letter of the week from the left wing Sacramento News & Review:

$1:
Teachers are not royalty

Re “Cuts, crowded classrooms & consultants” by Cosmo Garvin (SN&R Frontlines, February 9):

Let’s look at some facts about teacher salaries, shall we? (All data on teacher salaries is taken from Ed-Data, which gives free information about teacher salaries and benefits for every school district in the state. The most recent data available on the site is from 2009-2010 and interestingly excludes information about administrative salaries.)

The range of teacher salaries in the Sacramento City Unified School District starts at $40,184 ($218 a day; $31 an hour) for an entry-level teacher ($8,000 more than I made last year in private industry with a master’s degree). The work year for a teacher is 184 work days (180 teaching days). The work day for a teacher is a short 7 hours. Please don’t waste my time telling me that teachers work longer hours than their contract requires, blah, blah, blah, they are supposed to be professionals. We all take work home.

The highest teacher salary possible in the school district is $86,673. Average salary for a teacher in the district is $63,345. Add to this 8.25 percent ($5,225 for the average teacher) for the district contribution to the State Teacher’s Retirement System and the $9,949 contributions for benefits that the public pays on their behalf. This would add up to annual compensation of $78,518 ($426 a day; $60.96 an hour).

A teacher earning the top salary would earn these amounts: $86,673 + $7,150 +$9,949 = $103,772 in total compensation ($563 a day; $80.42an hour). Eye-opening data from the U.S. Census Bureau: The average per capita income of the residents in Sacramento is $25,427. The median income level in the city of Sacramento—that’s all wage earners in a household—is $50,267. So the average teacher in Sacramento is earning $37,918 (more than 149 percent) more than the average resident who pays their salaries. The average individual teacher is making $13,708 (greater than 26 percent) more than the average city of Sacramento household.

And that is just the higher amount on salaries; few private employees have the kind of retirement and fringe contributions that teachers enjoy.

The article spends a lot of time focusing on consulting contracts and this could be justified in some cases but no facts are given except that 77 percent of the $39 million is from restricted funds. An example could be money for free lunches that can’t be spend on teacher salaries (thank goodness, or it would be, I am quite certain). [Cosmo] Garvin reports the wonderful news that board member Diana Rodriguez managed to win support on the board for “an ad hoc committee to hold hearings and study consultant contracts.” First of all, the board approved all of those contracts. Did Rodriguez miss that? She voted on them. Is she unsure of her decision or is she really just looking for a public buffer from the teacher union? The elephant at the contract-negotiation table is the lack of the district’s ability to rein in the average teacher salary, not on the 15 percent of the budget they have some discretion over. Real savings must include cutting salaries, cutting work years, cutting benefits and reining in the cost of fringe benefits.

Teachers do important work, but so does my bus driver. I see no justifiable reason that an average teacher makes a salary so far above the average citizen who foots the bill. They’re not royalty, and they’re not heroes.

Derek Link
Sacramento


I bring this up because I'd be surprised if the same kind of math didn't apply in BC as it does in California.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:26 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:

But demanding that tax payers who earn less than the teachers pay more taxes to help teachers earn even more is absurd.



So what, pay everybody except the CEOs minimum wage?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:38 pm
 


No, just that if you want to be well-off you should not go into public service and, conversely, anyone in public service should not demand to be well-off.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:41 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
No, just that if you want to be well-off you should not go into public service and, conversely, anyone in public service should not demand to be well-off.


So teachers should be poor. Good idea.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:41 pm
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
Tricks Tricks:
Lemmy Lemmy:
When did teachers in Saskatchewan last strike before 2011? Never.

So? I also live in Ontario where it is abused regularly, see above. Teaching should be made an essential service just like the others I mentioned. Work to rule? Fine, I've gone through that, it's not that big of a deal.

Regularly? The last teacher strike in Ontario was in 1997 and it was 2 weeks. Actually, it wasn't even a strike so much as a political protest. The last before that was a decade earlier and only involved some boards. Your use of the words "abuse" and "regularly" are incorrect.
Ontario wide teacher strike, yes. But again, there have been over 100 in 30 years on a board level, something you conveniently gloss right over.

$1:
Ahh, so you have a hard-on for teachers. Didn't like your teachers back in highschool, eh? That's fine. Believe what you like, but from an objective perspective, you're talking out your ass.

Actually I had a few excellent teachers (the majority being in the private sector) but that's beside the point. I don't like people using children as a bargaining chip to get more money when they get paid just as much as essential services do, for working 15% less time than them. I have no patience for that shit, especially in these times. They should be made an essential service, full stop.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:46 pm
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Guys like Tricks don't have a hard-on for teachers, they just don't appreciate being used as a pawn so teachers can pad their wallets in the guise of "doing it all for the kids"

That's the bargaining power, isn't it? "That's just the way she goes, Ricky, fucking way she goes."
So that makes it okay? That means we can't be angry about it? Who's not being objective now? No wonder nothing changes.

$1:
But just for perspective, what do you think a teacher SHOULD be paid? What number would you view as fair? We agree that they deserve to be paid, right? What do you think the average salary is among Ontario teachers?

The same as essential services or 10-15% less for their two month break. I'm good with either.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:47 pm
 


Tricks Tricks:
They should be made an essential service, full stop.


They are in BC. A better system needs to be found than having unions for civil servants. There is only one employer, so there's not economic pressure on the employer to settle. OTOH, it's not the employer's money, so there's no direct pressure on them to be frugal either. It's all about public opinion, which is not the way to settle labor disputes. Set up some sort of system that looks at private sector wages for similar work and pay that.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:54 pm
 


andyt andyt:
Tricks Tricks:
They should be made an essential service, full stop.


They are in BC. A better system needs to be found than having unions for civil servants. There is only one employer, so there's not economic pressure on the employer to settle. OTOH, it's not the employer's money, so there's no direct pressure on them to be frugal either. It's all about public opinion, which is not the way to settle labor disputes. Set up some sort of system that looks at private sector wages for similar work and pay that.

Private sector pays based on how many students there are, and because it's private sector, there are considerably less students, so that doesn't work either. Instead, I think you look at other professions in the same income bracket, i.e. Cops, Nurses, and Firefighters. Pay them all the same. I still think teachers should make less than those three, but I'd be able to accept equal across the board. Infact, I'd probably say Nurses should be moved up but that's just me.


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