[bootlegga]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Even Henry Ford knew he had to produce a product his employees could afford, or there would be no market.

That's an apples and oranges comparison - the difference is that making a car/truck is a skilled job, while pouring coffee at Timmies or selling jeans at the Gap isn't. Additionally, anyone working on minimum wage can usually afford to buy a Big Mac or a double double with their pay.

While I agree that something needs to be done to help those on the low income side, minimum wage increases don't do that very effectively. As the BoC notes, as many as 60,000 people on minimum wage could lost their job in the next two years.

Rapid increases in minimum wage like this just spur employers to use automation. In the past, it was few and far between, but it has been accelerating lately, from Shopper's Drug mart to Cineplex to most grocery store chains to McDonald's to even bottle depots here in Edmonton (replacing the cashier with an ATM). Even Mr. Lube has a mannequin to spin its sign out front, instead of hiring a pimple faced teenager with an iPod to do it.

The fact is McDonald's, the Gap, Wal-Mart, etc are not careers, unless you work hard and get into management - for most people they are transitory jobs while they are young, or perhaps a way to earn a little extra after retirement.

I've said it dozens of times here, if you want to help people to get out of poverty, they need education. As the old adage goes, give a person a fish, feed them for a day, teach them to fish, feed them for life.

Everyone can't be a doctor or a lawyer, but there are lots of jobs in the trades, health care (LPNs and other nursing staff), even IT that go unfilled all the time. The problem is that creating grant programs or subsidies cost governments money and that usually means raising taxes or getting rid of other cherished social programs.

[BRAH]

Automotive, fleet companies in Vancouver and the surrounding areas are hurting for technicians, VPD is on a hiring spree, etc and the major issue with finding these qualified people is affordable housing as no one wants drive 2 hours a day to and from work.

[uwish]

bootlegga bootlegga:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Even Henry Ford knew he had to produce a product his employees could afford, or there would be no market.

That's an apples and oranges comparison - the difference is that making a car/truck is a skilled job, while pouring coffee at Timmies or selling jeans at the Gap isn't. Additionally, anyone working on minimum wage can usually afford to buy a Big Mac or a double double with their pay.

While I agree that something needs to be done to help those on the low income side, minimum wage increases don't do that very effectively. As the BoC notes, as many as 60,000 people on minimum wage could lost their job in the next two years.

Rapid increases in minimum wage like this just spur employers to use automation. In the past, it was few and far between, but it has been accelerating lately, from Shopper's Drug mart to Cineplex to most grocery store chains to McDonald's to even bottle depots here in Edmonton (replacing the cashier with an ATM). Even Mr. Lube has a mannequin to spin its sign out front, instead of hiring a pimple faced teenager with an iPod to do it.

The fact is McDonald's, the Gap, Wal-Mart, etc are not careers, unless you work hard and get into management - for most people they are transitory jobs while they are young, or perhaps a way to earn a little extra after retirement.

I've said it dozens of times here, if you want to help people to get out of poverty, they need education. As the old adage goes, give a person a fish, feed them for a day, teach them to fish, feed them for life.

Everyone can't be a doctor or a lawyer, but there are lots of jobs in the trades, health care (LPNs and other nursing staff), even IT that go unfilled all the time. The problem is that creating grant programs or subsidies cost governments money and that usually means raising taxes or getting rid of other cherished social programs.

point and match...

[DrCaleb]

bootlegga bootlegga:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Even Henry Ford knew he had to produce a product his employees could afford, or there would be no market.

That's an apples and oranges comparison - the difference is that making a car/truck is a skilled job, while pouring coffee at Timmies or selling jeans at the Gap isn't. Additionally, anyone working on minimum wage can usually afford to buy a Big Mac or a double double with their pay.

While I agree with most of what you wrote, it is a fair comparison. If people can't live off the wages they earn, then the only people they can hire for the job are the unskilled. Many people, like single mothers, or the physically or mentally handicapped are incapable of secondary education, and have little choice but to take unskilled work.

That's why so many service industry jobs now rely on the TFWs or young adults, because the wages have been driven down so far only they can afford to live on them.

[uwish]

I don't think wages have been driven down, they just stayed pace with a low or no skill level job as the cost of living increases. I am sorry, but just because someone isn't able to attend some form of post secondary education, doesn't mean they get a free pass.

[DrCaleb]

uwish uwish:

I don't think wages have been driven down, they just stayed pace with a low or no skill level job. I am sorry, but just because someone isn't able to attend some form of post secondary education, doesn't mean they get a free pass.

So, they have to attend post secondary if they want to earn a living wage, in your world?

And you wonder why we have so many homeless.

[uwish]

you need a profession, a trade, to contribute. Either through business or education, there are no other ways to contribute. Going to boots post, you need to have some form of education to lift yourself out of poverty, that's just the way it is. If you don't you starve, while there are a select few that are poor due to mental health issues, there are far more people in poverty because they are not educated but expect a similar lifestyle to say you or me.

We don't live in that world, and I pay enough taxes already, as I said before you make your own bed in the morning, but just because you like mine, doesn't mean I am going to give it to you.

[DrCaleb]

uwish uwish:

you need a profession, a trade, to contribute. Either through business or education, there are no other ways to contribute. Going to boots post, you need to have some form of education to lift yourself out of poverty, that's just the way it is. If you don't you starve, while there are a select few that are poor due to mental health issues, there are far more people in poverty because they are not educated but expect a similar lifestyle to say you or me.

So the guy who had a good engineering job, but had some mental health issues and now can't get a job in his profession - he's shit out of luck? The woman who got raped, but kept the child and has never been able to finish high school, she and her offspring can beg on street corners, so long as you don't have to contribute to her well being?

The compassion is strong with this one! Protip: Making them taxpayers too, helps us all.

uwish uwish:

We don't live in that world, and I pay enough taxes already, as I said before you make your own bed in the morning, but just because you like mine, doesn't mean I am going to give it to you.

So why should I have to pay for you to use my roads, or for my my taxes that go towards fire and police protection?

[uwish]

your a dolt, you are pointing out the 0.1% of the situations then claiming we should make policy out of the outliers. You make policy for the 90 to 95% not the <5%.

[DrCaleb]

uwish uwish:

your a dolt, you are pointing out the 0.1% of the situations then claiming we should make policy out of the outliers. You make policy for the 90 to 95% not the <5%.

"you're".

And the .1% are the ones we are talking about. 60,000 jobs in 30 million population is .002%.

[uwish]

clearly your example of a raped mother, or an Engineer with mental health issues was NOT part of the lower or no skilled work force this article is describing.

[DrCaleb]

uwish uwish:

clearly your example of a raped mother, or an Engineer with mental health issues was NOT part of the lower or no skilled work force this article is describing.

Actually, the single mother is directly out of the article I linked to above. And the engineer with mental health issues is a real world experience. You should know, as a professional yourself, that a security check is an important part of the modern employment scheme.

Ever try to pass a security check with incidents involving mental health on your record with the RCMP? No employer cares why your file comes back as 'red flag', they just never call you back. That's why it's important to have occupations where an unskilled person can earn a living and raise a family. Maybe that person can't be an engineer, but perhaps they can can be a delivery driver, or some other occupation that means they don't have to work 2 jobs just to pay the outrageous rents charged nowadays.

An increase to minimum wage only starts them in that direction.

[uwish]

Since leaving the military I have had all of ZERO security checks for employment purposes. ZERO. They are not required for professional members of APEGA either.

[BartSimpson]

raydan raydan:

But, but, but... shouldn't the trickle down effect keep these people warm?

So you should raise the minimum wage even higher?

[uwish]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

uwish uwish:

your a dolt, you are pointing out the 0.1% of the situations then claiming we should make policy out of the outliers. You make policy for the 90 to 95% not the <5%.

And the .1% are the ones we are talking about. 60,000 jobs in 30 million population is .002%.

there are only 19.5 million working (men and women) according to stats Canada, the rest are too young or retired.