[PluggyRug]

They are standing on a mobius strip

[romanP]

PluggyRug wrote:

They are standing on a mobius strip

Made of turtles.

[djakeydd]

Statistical impossibility is in the range of 1 in 10 to the 50th. The odds of the basic protein used in forming a single dna molecule forming by chance - 1 in 10 to the 10 billionth. This is from an atheist mathematician. By the way, all the molecular biologists in the world as a team cannot even begin to synthesize a single dna molecule. So einstein aint quite so smart after all..

Evidence for Design of the Cosmos
by Hugh Ross, Ph.D.
More than two dozen parameters for the universe must havevalues falling within narrowly defined ranges for life of anykind to exist at any time in the history of the universe.
related articles:

The Designed 'Just So' Universe (this link added by the WWCW)
New Astronomical Proofs for the Existence of God
Quantum Gravity and the Origin of the Universe
Quantum Mechanics, a Modern Goliath
Design and the Anthropic Principle
Astronomical Evidences for the God of the Bible


1. Strong nuclear force constant

if larger: no hydrogen; nuclei essential for life would be unstable
if smaller: no elements other than hydrogen
2. Weak nuclear force constant

if larger: too much hydrogen converted to helium in big bang, hence too much heavy element material made by star burning; no expulsion of heavy elements from stars
if smaller: too little helium produced from big bang, hence too little heavy element material made by star burning; no expulsion of heavy elements from stars
3. Gravitational force constant

if larger: stars too hot; they would burn up quickly and unevenly
if smaller: stars too cool; nuclear fusion would not ignite; no heavy element production
4. Electromagnetic force constant

if larger: insufficient chemical bonding; elements more massive than boron would be too unstable for fusion
if smaller: insufficient chemical bonding
5. Ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitationalforce constant

if larger: no stars less than 1.4 solar masses, hence short and uneven stellar burning
if smaller: no stars more than 0.8 solar masses. hence no heavy element production
6. Ratio of electron to proton mass

if larger: insufficient chemical bonding
if smaller: insufficient chemical bonding
7. Ratio of number of protons to number of electrons

if larger: electromagnetism dominates gravity preventing galaxy, star and planet formation
if smaller: electromagnetism dominates gravity preventing galaxy, star, and planet formation
8. Expansion rate of the universe

if larger: no galaxy formation
if smaller: universe collapses prior to star formation
9. Entropy level of the universe

if larger: no star condensation within the proto-galaxies
if smaller: no proto-galaxy formation
10. Mass density of the universe

if larger: too much deuterium from big bang, hence stars burn too rapidly
if smaller: insufficient helium from big bang, hence too few heavy elements forming
11. Velocity of light

if larger: stars would be too luminous
if smaller: stars would not be luminous enough
12. Age of the universe

if older: no solar-type stars in a stable burning phase in the right part of the galaxy
if younger: solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would not yet have formed
13. Initial uniformity of radiation

if smoother: stars, star clusters, and galaxies would not have formed
if coarser: universe by now would be mostly black holes and empty space
14. Fine structure constant (a number used to describe thefine structure splitting of spectral lines)

if larger: no stars more than 0.7 solar masses
if smaller: no stars less than 1.8 solar masses
15. Average distance between galaxies

if larger: insufficient gas would be infused into our galaxy to sustain star formation over an adequate time span
if smaller: the sun's orbit would be too radically disturbed
16. Galaxy cluster type

if too rich: galaxy collisions and mergers would disrupt solar orbit
if too sparse: insufficient infusion of gas to sustain star formation for a long enough time
17. Average distance between stars

if larger: heavy element density too thin for rocky planets to form
if smaller: planetary orbits would become destabilized
18. Decay rate of the proton

if greater: life would be exterminated by the release of radiation
if smaller: insufficient matter in the universe for life
19. 12C to 16O nuclear energy levelratio

if larger: insufficient oxygen
if smaller: insufficient carbon
20. Ground state energy level for 4He

if larger: insufficient carbon and oxygen
if smaller: insufficient carbon and oxygen
21. Decay rate of 8Be

if slower: heavy element fusion would generate catastrophic explosions in all the stars
if faster: no element production beyond beryllium, hence no life chemistry possible
22. Mass excess of the neutron over the proton

if greater: neutron decay would leave too few neutrons to form the heavy elements essential for life
if smaller: proton decay would cause all stars to rapidly collapse into neutron stars or black holes
23. Initial excess of nucleons over anti-nucleons

if greater: too much radiation for planets to form
if smaller: not enough matter for galaxies or stars to form
24. Polarity of the water molecule

if greater: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too great for life to exist
if smaller: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too small for life; liquid water would be too inferior a solvent for life chemistry to proceed; ice would not float, leading to a runaway freeze-up
25. Supernovae eruptions

if too close: radiation would exterminate life on the planet
if too far: not enough heavy element ashes for the formation of rocky planets
if too infrequent: not enough heavy element ashes for the formation of rocky planets
if too frequent: life on the planet would be exterminated
if too soon: not enough heavy element ashes for the formation of rocky planets
if too late: life on the planet would be exterminated by radiation
26.White dwarf binaries

if too few: insufficient fluorine produced for life chemistry to proceed
if too many: disruption of planetary orbits from stellar density; life on the planet would be exterminated
if too soon: not enough heavy elements made for efficient fluorine production
if too late: fluorine made too late for incorporation in protoplanet
27. Ratio of the mass of exotic matter to ordinary matter

if smaller: galaxies would not form
if larger: universe would collapse before solar-type stars can form


Not just the universe bears evidence for design. The sun andthe earth also reveal a number of parameters necessary to supportof life. A sample is listed below.
Evidence for the fine-tuning of the galaxy-sun-earth-moonsystem for life support
1. Galaxy type

if too elliptical: star formation would cease before sufficient heavy element build-up for life chemistry
if too irregular: radiation exposure on occasion would be too severe and heavy elements for life chemistry would not be available
if too large: infusion of gas and stars would disturb sun's orbit and ignite too many galactic eruptions
if too small: insufficient infusion of gas to sustain star formation
2. Supernovae eruptions

if too close: life on the planet would be exterminated by radiation
if too far: not enough heavy element ashes would exist for the formation of rocky planets
if too infrequent: not enough heavy element ashes present for the formation of rocky planets
if too frequent: life on the planet would be exterminated
if too soon: not enough heavy element ashes would exist for the formation of rocky planets
if too late: life on the planet would be exterminated by radiation
3. White dwarf binaries

if too few: insufficient fluorine would be produced for life chemistry to proceed
if too many: planetary orbits disrupted by stellar density; life on planet would be exterminated
if too soon: not enough heavy elements would he made for efficient fluorine production
if too late: fluorine would be made too late for incorporation in protoplanet
4. Parent star distance from center of galaxy

if farther: quantity of heavy elements would be insufficient to make rocky planets
if closer: galactic radiation would be too great; stellar density would disturb planetary orbits
5. Number of stars in the planetary system

if more than one: tidal interactions would disrupt planetary orbits
if less than one: heat produced would be insufficient for life
6. Parent star birth date

if more recent: star would not yet have reached stable burning phase; stellar system would contain too many heavy elements
if less recent: stellar system would not contain enough heavy elements
7. Parent star age

if older: luminosity of star would change too quickly
if younger: luminosity of star would change too quickly
8. Parent star mass

if greater: luminosity of star would change too quickly; star would burn too rapidly
if less: range of planet distances for life would be too narrow; tidal forces would disrupt the life planet's rotational period; uv radiation would be inadequate for plants to make sugars and oxygen
9. Parent star color

if redder: photosynthetic response would be insufficient
if bluer: photosynthetic response would be insufficient
10. Parent star luminosity relative to speciation

if increases too soon: runaway green house effect would develop
if increases too late: runaway glaciation would develop
11. Surface gravity (escape velocity)

if stronger: planet's atmosphere would retain too much ammonia and methane
if weaker: planet's atmosphere would lose too much water
12. Distance from parent star

if farther: planet would be too cool for a stable water cycle
if closer: planet would be too warm for a stable water cycle
13. Inclination of orbit

if too great: temperature differences on the planet would be too extreme.
14. Orbital eccentricity

if too great: seasonal temperature differences would be too extreme
15. Axial tilt

if greater: surface temperature differences would be too great
if less: surface temperature differences would be too great
16. Rotation period

if longer: diurnal temperature differences would be too great
if shorter: atmospheric wind velocities would be too great
17. Rate of change in rotation period

if longer: surface temperature range necessary for life would not be sustained
if shorter: surface temperature range necessary for life would not be sustained
18. Age

if too young: planet would rotate too rapidly
if too old: planet would rotate too slowly
19. Magnetic field

if stronger: electromagnetic storms would be too severe
if weaker: ozone shield would be inadequately protected from hard stellar and solar radiation
20. Thickness of crust

if thicker: too much oxygen would be transferred from the atmosphere to the crust
if thinner: volcanic and tectonic activity would be too great
21. Albedo (ratio of reflected light to total amount fallingon surface)

if greater: runaway glaciation would develop
if less: runaway greenhouse effect would develop
22. Asteroidal and cometary collision rate

if greater: too many species would become extinct
if less: crust would be too depleted of materials essential for life
23. Oxygen to nitrogen ratio in atmosphere

if larger: advanced life functions would proceed too quickly
if smaller: advanced life functions would proceed too slowly
24. Carbon dioxide level in atmosphere

if greater: runaway greenhouse effect would develop
if less: plants would be unable to maintain efficient photosynthesis
25. Water vapor level in atmosphere

if greater: runaway greenhouse effect would develop
if less: rainfall would be too meager for advanced life on the land
26. Atmospheric electric discharge rate

if greater: too much fire destruction would occur
if less: too little nitrogen would be fixed in the atmosphere
27. Ozone level in atmosphere

if greater: surface temperatures would be too low
if less: surface temperatures would be too high; too much uv radiation would be at the surface
28. Oxygen quantity in atmosphere

if greater: plants and hydrocarbons would bum up too easily
if less: advanced animals would have too little to breathe
29. Seismic activity

if greater: too many life-forms would be destroyed
if less: nutrients on ocean floors from river runoff would not be recycled to continents through tectonics.
30. Oceans-to-continents ratio

if greater: diversity and complexity of life-forms would be limited
if smaller: diversity and complexity of life-forms would be limited
31. Global distribution of continents (for Earth)

if too much in the southern hemisphere: seasonal differences too severe for advanced life
32. Soil mineralization

if too nutrient poor: diversity and complexity of life-forms would be limited
if too nutrient rich: diversity and complexity of life-forms would be limited
33. Gravitational interaction with a moon

if greater: tidal effects on the oceans, atmosphere, and rotational period would be too severe
if less: orbital obliquity changes would cause climatic instabilities; movement of nutrients and life from the oceans to the continents and vice versa would be insufficient; magnetic field would be too weak
34. Jupiter distance

if greater: too many asteroid and comet collisions would occur on Earth
if less: Earth's orbit would become unstable
35. Jupiter mass

if greater: Earth's orbit would become unstable
if less: too many asteroid and comet collisions would occur on Earth


(Adapted from the author's books, The Fingerprint of God (secondedition, Promise Publishing, 1991) and The Creator and theCosmos (second edition, NavPress, 1995). References may befound in both books.)




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[uwish]

my only problem with this approach is when time is infinite probability is irrelevant.

So what if it takes a one in one hundred billion chances? who cares, time has never truly 'stopped' or started. Who is to say that the universe aka big bang hasn't happened 200 billion times already?

So cosmically, probabilities are trivial.

[Blue_Nose]

uwish wrote:

So cosmically, probabilities are trivial.

Exactly, plus this thinking assumes we necessarily had to develop a certain way - we could have just as easily developed some other way if Earth had different properties.

It makes as much sense as saying of the 150 million square kilometers of land on Earth, I just happened to be born in a 2 meter square hospital bed in central Nova Scotia - the technical odds of that are about one in 75 billion, and therefore it's statistically improbable for me to have been born.