[Lemmy]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Without any actual data, how can you say it's a myth? It's your opinion that business leaders are just griping because that's what they do and there's no truth to what's being said.

I never said I didn't have any data, I asked you to show me yours. We're talking about a claim you made, not I. The burden of proof lies with you.

OTI OTI:

All depends on the business. If you're a company that has the majority of it's customers in another jurisdiction/Country, it may make perfect sense to move there.

A-ha! So that business would be moving for a reason other than the price of hydro, wouldn't they?

OTI OTI:

So with all the reasons you pointed out, why are we bleeding jobs from certain sectors? I mean, if Ontario is so wonderful and attractive to business, surely all of our sectors would be strong.

Globalization and robots. Specialization. Technology. Free trade. We've enacted all sorts of policies ON PURPOSE to bleed jobs. We don't want all sectors to be strong. We want the ones we've selected to be strong. That's the whole point of free trade. That's the whole reason we passed the FTA and then brought Mexico in to it.

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy Lemmy:

I never said I didn't have any data, I asked you to show me yours. We're talking about a claim you made, not I. The burden of proof lies with you.

I never made a claim. I would suggest you re-read my comments.

The only claim here is one from you indicating that businesses moving due to hydro rates is a myth.

Lemmy Lemmy:

A-ha! So that business would be moving for a reason other than the price of hydro, wouldn't they?

Had you read my initial comments correctly, you would see that's what I said. Energy prices are just part of the reason business are leaving.

[andyt]

I don't see how Ontario car dealerships are leaving because of high electricity costs. I'm also surprised that electricity is a major cost factor for an auto dealership. I would have expected interest payments (for stock and mortgage) and labor to be the major costs.

[Delwin]

I think it has more to do with the cost of CAW unionized labour versus the cost of labour in Mexico.

[Lemmy]

Delwin Delwin:

I think it has more to do with the cost of CAW unionized labour versus the cost of labour in Mexico.

In other words, the difference between the wage rates for skilled versus unskilled labour. You're right, it's partly due to the cost of labour. But a lot more about the relative prices of labour and capital.

[Lemmy]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Had you read my initial comments correctly, you would see that's what I said. Energy prices are just part of the reason business are leaving.

But businesses aren't leaving. Jobs are but production is not. You're forgetting that most jobs lost in Ontario over the past 20 years have been lost to robots, not to relocated production. And what is the wage rate for robots? Hmmmm. Wonder why business leaders exaggerate the pains of increasing electricity prices. Wouldn't have anything to do with robot-labour being paid in kWh.

[bootlegga]

Thanos Thanos:

Delwin Delwin:

Well, you don't even have to get your spending down to Ontario levels, there is a movement right now to get it to BC levels, if you guys were able to do that, you would save $1539 per person, and I don't have to tell a fiscally minded person like yourself the kind of good that could do.

Here I'll help you out. Please sign this petition and try to get your government on track to spending per person somewhere closer to the national average, every voice counts:

BRING ALBERTA SPENDING DOWN TO BC LEVELS

https://www.taxpayer.com/resource-centr ... tentId=107

http://www.debtclock.ca/provincial-debtclocks/

BC debt --> $65 billion
AB debt --> $16 billion

BC debt per person --> $14650
AB debt per person --> $4000

So many financial experts across the country to choose from! Oh for sure man!

Actually, if we wanted, we could just cash in the Heritage Trust Fund (valued at 17+ billion right now), and not have any debt...at least until the end of the fiscal year in March. Then we'd have 5 billion or so in debt.

Still far less than any other province in the country.

[bootlegga]

Thanos Thanos:

You're missing one important detail. I don't actually care about program spending. I lived through the Klein years, and the Chretien ones too. The debt/deficit fervour of that era was the trend of the moment. Terrorizing the public over debt & deficit led to the worst cuts in Canadian history, at both the federal and provincial levels. It set the country back twenty years on infrastructure alone and left too many people that were already on the bubble ending up in a position of misery. Debt and deficit in hard times, kept within reason, is not that big a deal. Austerity is far worse, and has been proven so over and over and over again in too many places. That's why I've complained ZERO about the Alberta NDP's spending plans and that's why in the last Alberta election I didn't vote for either the PC's or the WRA. The Klein experiment was a disaster that shouldn't ever be repeated.

I know I sound like a broken record, on this, but had Klein not pulled $13 billion in principal from the Heritage Trust Fund while he was in office (and actually let it gather interest as Lougheed envisioned), it would be sitting at about $100 billion or so right now, which would generate enough interest to balance the deficit even under the NDP right now.

Instead, Klein cut taxes and services to the bone by laying off thousands of workers, many of whom either left the province (nurses and doctors) for good or came back as consultants and contractors and earned as much or even more than they did as union employees.

In my books, there was nothing wrong with Klein wanting to pay down the debt, but it should have taken twice as long so as to minimize the hardships it created and ensure that we saved something to protect us from future shocks like the one we're going through right now.

[Lemmy]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

I never made a claim. I would suggest you re-read my comments.

The only claim here is one from you indicating that businesses moving due to hydro rates is a myth.

Yeah?

OTI OTI:

You don't have to look far past energy prices to see where costs have increased massively not just for manufacturing companies but other business as well.

With energy prices what they are and taxes at their current levels, it's no wonder why business opt to leave or close.

That's not a claim, by you, that taxes and energy prices are driving businesses out of Ontario?

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy Lemmy:

That's not a claim, by you, that taxes and energy prices are driving businesses out of Ontario?

Well yea, if you ignore everything else and cherry pick one comment.

The price of doing business in Ontario, what I originally referred to, is the reason many business opt to move from Ontario or close. That price includes many factors, one of them being energy which is why I said, you didn't have to look far past the cost of energy to see why some would leave.

Couple energy prices with taxation and labour, it's an expensive Province to do business in.

[Lemmy]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Well yea, if you ignore everything else and cherry pick one comment.

The price of doing business in Ontario, what I originally referred to, is the reason many business opt to move from Ontario or close. That price includes many factors, one of them being energy which is why I said, you didn't have to look far past the cost of energy to see why some would leave.

Couple energy prices with taxation and labour, it's an expensive Province to do business in.

Well, you're still saying that business "are opting to move from Ontario or close" but you haven't established that that's occurring at all, for any reasons; the ones you suggest or other. Now you say it's an expensive Province to do business. That's another drive-by claim with no proof to support it. Yes, hydro rates are higher than some other provinces, but those other provinces also have aspects of their business climate that are less attractive than Ontario's. They don't have the infrastructure, the location, the population density, the labour pool, etc, etc, etc...

So what are we left with? How about raw data on business income or manufacturing income? Those numbers tell us that manufacturing is increasing in Ontario, steadily, year after year. So it must be the case that, despite slightly higher hydro prices and slightly higher business taxation rates, Ontario has enough advantages over other locales that it is still an attractive place to do business.

[2Cdo]

Lemmy Lemmy:

. Yes, hydro rates are higher than some other provinces, .

They're the highest in ALL of North America.

[Thanos]

Leave the hydro rates aside for a minute. What about a decade or more worth of PST and other taxes rising every year? Or a fuel tax that rises every year? I get a laugh over the wankers complaining about the cost of gasoline that hasn't gone down relative to the price of oil. Seems no one ever wants to talk about how the government take on fuel taxes, especially in a place like Ontario, has probably doubled over the last ten years.

[2Cdo]

Thanos Thanos:

Leave the hydro rates aside for a minute. What about a decade or more worth of PST and other taxes rising every year? Or a fuel tax that rises every year? I get a laugh over the wankers complaining about the cost of gasoline that hasn't gone down relative to the price of oil. Seems no one ever wants to talk about how the government take on fuel taxes, especially in a place like Ontario, has probably doubled over the last ten years.

Don't forget when Ontario changed to the Harmonized Sales Tax and started applying it to things that were previously exempt from both taxes. Little non-essential things like natural gas and home heating oil. Nothing like creating more reasons not to relocate either a business or your residence.

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy Lemmy:

So what are we left with? How about raw data on business income or manufacturing income? Those numbers tell us that manufacturing is increasing in Ontario, steadily, year after year. So it must be the case that, despite slightly higher hydro prices and slightly higher business taxation rates, Ontario has enough advantages over other locales that it is still an attractive place to do business.

It's ironic to see you use a source that you've previously discounted and ignored to support your point today.

I wish I could view the Province from behind the same rose colored glasses you always seem to have on.