[Lemmy]

bootlegga bootlegga:

This is nothing like the NEP.

What I meant was that your post, which Thanos vigorously applauded, specifically stated that we should be doing what's best for Canada instead of giving into the complaints/greed of specific regions. I just thought that was an odd concept (hypocritical, in fact) for someone like Thanos to champion, given his disdain for all things Trudeau, specifically the NEP. What the NEP was, whether successful or not, was an attempt to do exactly what Thanos applauded: put the interests of Canadians, as a whole, over selfish regional interests.

And as for Alberta's hardships in the wake of the NEP, well, I've used this analogy before but Alberta's whining about the NEP is a lot like Titanic survivors crying about the conditions in the lifeboats while the rest of the ship's passengers were freezing and drowning in the North Atlantic.

[Thanos]

"What's in the best interest of Canada" is in the eyes of the beholder. I'm under no obligation to accept what PET thought was Canada's "best interest" than you are to accept what Demon Harper thought it was. It's not an objective fact, it's an entirely subjective opinion. Explain more clearly why thousands of Alberta businesses shutting down and tens of thousands of Albertans losing their jobs and their homes, which is exactly what the NEP did to us out here, was to you an acceptable sacrifice for Albertans to pay all so other Canadians could have gasoline that was cheaper than what the world market was charging at the time.

[herbie]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Herbie, why are you such a hate-filled individual?

I'm not. I reserve that for the greedy pig fucking corporate scumbags who prove over and over they'd sell your Granny to make a nickel and the deluded citizens who'd fight to the death for their right to earn the maximum profit doing it.
You know, like how the first thing you say about them is 'fuckers' when you're filling your tank, then you're online reposting their utter bullshit.
Perhaps if you actually lived where they want the line, you'd get to see them present fraudulent maps and tell outright lies at a town hall meeting too. If you actually owned a construction outfit, you might get to earn a little, for a few weeks, clearing the way for it. And then NOTHING, like everyone else. But nobody here does own a company that would even make that chicken change out of the pipeline construction, do they?

And BART - the pipeline doesn't go to Washington State. That's Alaskan oil refined there at Cherry Point, and yeah southern BC uses gas from there.
The pipeline goes to Burnaby, and was partly converted in the 80s to bring refined Alberta gas, so they could shut the refineries there down. Chevron still refines kerosene (jet fuel) from some of the crude and the rest is exported. They're having a hell of a time getting more pipe just to the Vancouver Airport!
When demand grew, it was cheaper to import refined product from the Cherry Point Wash. refinery to supply Vancouver. Now that the dollar's tanked again THAT HURTS.

I grew up there (Burnaby - Trans Mtn Pipeline) , and have no problem upgrading the existing line. No problems in all those years with the existing one.
Other than the fact they want to export all the new oil through Vancouver harbour and not a fucking drop to restart those refineries and return jobs to Canada.
I have no problem with Energy East, except its not intended to make jobs here, just to export more raw oil.
Enbridge wants to pipe bitumen through new territory, strictly for export and import and pipe toxic thinner the other way. Involving crossing my fishing grounds and running tankers through Kitimat endangering the whole Inside Passage. That one I oppose 100%

[Lemmy]

Thanos Thanos:

"What's in the best interest of Canada" is in the eyes of the beholder. I'm under no obligation to accept what PET thought was Canada's "best interest" than you are to accept what Demon Harper thought it was. It's not an objective fact, it's an entirely subjective opinion. Explain more clearly why thousands of Alberta businesses shutting down and tens of thousands of Albertans losing their jobs and their homes, which is exactly what the NEP did to us out here, was to you an acceptable sacrifice for Albertans to pay all so other Canadians could have gasoline that was cheaper than what the world market was charging at the time.

Times were tough all over in those days. The Titanic was on its way to the bottom. But don't kid yourself. Albertans were in the lifeboats compared to a lot of the rest of Canada.

[bootlegga]

Lemmy Lemmy:

bootlegga bootlegga:

This is nothing like the NEP.

What I meant was that your post, which Thanos vigorously applauded, specifically stated that we should be doing what's best for Canada instead of giving into the complaints/greed of specific regions. I just thought that was an odd concept (hypocritical, in fact) for someone like Thanos to champion, given his disdain for all things Trudeau, specifically the NEP. What the NEP was, whether successful or not, was an attempt to do exactly what Thanos applauded: put the interests of Canadians, as a whole, over selfish regional interests.

As I said, it was trotted out with the good intentions, but was flawed and hurt Alberta far more than it ever helped eastern Canada. Had it truly been designed to help everyone , it would have included a policy to build pipelines east to refine Alberta crude, but that never happened. It was a policy to buy votes in central Canada that also started a recession in Alberta which preceded the one the ROC felt by almost a year.

The NEP created such a backlash here that the Liberals didn't win seats in Alberta for more than a decade AND in part helped to spawn the Reform movement. As such, I'd argue that people who supported the NEP in central Canada are at least partially (if not largely) to blame for any woes (perceived or otherwise) that Stephen Harper and the current Conservative party inflicted on them.

Lemmy Lemmy:

And as for Alberta's hardships in the wake of the NEP, well, I've used this analogy before but Alberta's whining about the NEP is a lot like Titanic survivors crying about the conditions in the lifeboats while the rest of the ship's passengers were freezing and drowning in the North Atlantic.

Anyone who say that Alberta wasn't hurt as much as the ROC doesn't understand how deep and far-reaching the recession the NEP caused was. It may be anecdotal, but most Albertans I knew lived in fear of losing their jobs, homes and everything else and doom and gloom were part in parcel for the entire 80s here in Alberta.

The economy here crashed so thoroughly that it took us the better part of two decades to dig out from under the mess - we didn't fully recover until the mid-90s.

[andyt]

The NEP didn't cause the recession, nor was it the reason oil prices tanked. Alberta was in trouble same as now, because they were so dependent on oil revenue.

[rickc]

andyt andyt:

The NEP didn't cause the recession, nor was it the reason oil prices tanked. Alberta was in trouble same as now, because they were so dependent on oil revenue.

What do you want them to do? You play the cards you are dealt in life. If you live on the ocean, you fish. If you live in the woods, you log. If you live in the plains, you farm. If Henry Ford is building assembly plants in your area, you manufacture. I'm tired of hearing all this whining about Alberta, and I don't even live in Alberta. They are good hard working people. They have done the best with what they have. You go spend some time in the oil patch. See how much you like freezing your ass off, and being separated from your loved ones for extended periods of time. Those people bust their asses in some very unforgiving weather, some of the worst in North America. Its easy for someone who works indoors in a comfortable climate controlled environment (who gets to go home and have dinner with their family every night and who gets to see their children grow up), to make fun of the people who work their lives away. Not only does the transfer payments benefit other parts of Canada, but a good number of the people working in the patch were from poorer eastern parts of Canada. Their personal transfer payments that they made to their families back east helped them and their local economies as well. Their families were not on the dole. They had money to spend in the local economy. Money they would not of had if not for Alberta. Alberta has tried everything to export their oil. They have been thwarted at every turn, from everybody. Some of that is due to the ineptitude of the company seeking to build the pipelines, but that is another story.

You keep beating the drum that Alberta should have diversified its economy. Mabey they should have. Maybe they should have lowered their corporate tax rate to the lowest in Canada. Mabey they should have offered a 20 year tax holiday on all manufacturing companies that relocate to Alberta. Then we would really hear some whining from the other Provinces wouldn't we? "Its not fair!!! Alberta has so much already, now they are stealing our manufacturing base as well! Somebody stop them!!!" People are going to hate. Alberta is damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

[andyt]

All I said was that the NEP didn't cause their problems, the tanking of the oil price did. All the rest is you doing your usual rant about what's going on in your head.

Maybe there's nothing they can do to diversify their economy. The smart thing to do, when you've gone thru a number of these ups and downs, is quit whinging and blaming everybody else, and put away enough money during good times to see you thru the bad. But that would mean paying higher taxes, not living so high off the hog. Only province with no sales tax, idiotic flat taxes. Like children with candy.

[2Cdo]

andyt andyt:

All I said was that the NEP didn't cause their problems, the tanking of the oil price did. All the rest is you doing your usual rant about what's going on in your head.

Maybe there's nothing they can do to diversify their economy. The smart thing to do, when you've gone thru a number of these ups and downs, is quit whinging and blaming everybody else, and put away enough money during good times to see you thru the bad. But that would mean paying higher taxes, not living so high off the hog. Only province with no sales tax, idiotic flat taxes. Like children with candy.

The usual andy nonsense. Your idea of trying to save more money by giving more of it to the government.

[rickc]

andyt andyt:

All I said was that the NEP didn't cause their problems, the tanking of the oil price did. All the rest is you doing your usual rant about what's going on in your head.

Maybe there's nothing they can do to diversify their economy. The smart thing to do, when you've gone thru a number of these ups and downs, is quit whinging and blaming everybody else, and put away enough money during good times to see you thru the bad. But that would mean paying higher taxes, not living so high off the hog. Only province with no sales tax, idiotic flat taxes. Like children with candy.

And your post is your usual anti Alberta bullshit. You are calling them idiots, and children. Its that smug superior attitude of yours that really pisses me off. You and B.C have it all figured out, don't you? You are so much smarter than the rest of us. Kind of like how you were bragging a few months ago about how green B.C. was becoming by closing all those coal plants in B.C. down, but you were unaware that Alberta was selling you the power you lost from their own coal burning plants. You like to brag about how great B.C. is, than you want to look down on Alberta for doing your dirty work for you. Let them die from black lung right? As long as they don't live in your Province, what do you care? I bet you weren't so smug a few years ago when we Americans were killing your softwood industry, were you? It was a different story when your people were losing their jobs, wasn't it? I remember back in the day on the old CBC boards how B.C. wanted it to be a U.S. versus Canada type of thing, and they got their wish. All of Canada rallied by B.C. and their lumber industry. I don't recall anyone from Alberta making smart ass comments about how B.C. should diversify their economy, and how they had put all their eggs in one basket, or how B.C. tax policies were to blame. No one was calling you idiots and children. They acted like how fellow Canadians SHOULD ACT. They had your back. I don't think I am out of line in saying that the rest of Canada SHOULD have Alberta's back. That is how a country operates. But hey thats just my usual rant about whats going on inside my head.

[andyt]

As was explained to you at the time, BC is doing Alberta a favor by buying their power during off periods because they can't just shut down the coal fired plants. We then sell back our clean hydro power during peak periods. Alberta is using us as a storage battery, and would be even dirtier if they didn't have access to our hydro. But keep raving.

What would you call people who during good times spend money like a drunken sailor instead of collecting some and putting it aside. Where's the benefit of those low taxes now? Bunch of Chinese crap and repossessed pickup trucks to show for it.

BC has hasn't put all it's eggs in one basket for a long time. We long ago found other ways of making money besides the forest industry. If it's doing well it's just a bonus now. And I never recall BCers yowling about how the ROC owes them something because our forestry took a hit. We yowled at the Americans, the cause of the problem instead. Unlike what we see on this board with people lashing out at the rest of Canada.

The problems I've mentioned about Alberta are well known, and many Albertans agree with my view. They may not use such harsh terms, but they know very well they pigged out during the good times and thought they would never end. Hey, it was all Pierre Trudeau's fault for the last crash, so that will never happen again.

Rave on.

[Thanos]

As of today:

BC provincial debt - over $65.5 billion
AB provincial debt - just over $17 billion

But you have more advice for us on saving?

[andyt]

Well great then. What's all the whinging about. You're sitting pretty. And if you have to borrow to tide you over, join the rest of the club instead of asking for bailouts.

[Thanos]

Right.....

[andyt]

Well, you seem to want it both ways. If y'all were so smart and kept debt low for a rainy day, this would be the time to borrow. Stand with the rest of Canada and all.