[BRAH]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

If Saddam Hussein were still in power and Iraq hadn't been turned into a Somalia-like failed state, there would be no ISIS.

The creation of ISIS came from the Syrian Civil War and a failed like Somilia like state would be Libya thanks to Barry and Hillary.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

The creation of ISIS came from the Syrian Civil War

That's just plain false. I mean for Crissakes, the founder of ISIS is named al-Baghdadi which means "From Baghdad"

$1:

Led by an Iraqi called Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, Isis was originally an al-Qaida group in Iraq, the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI). As the Syrian civil war intensified, its involvement in the conflict was indirect at first. Abu Muhammad al-Joulani, an ISI member, established Jabhat al-Jabhat al-Nusra in mid-2011, which became the main jihadi group in the Syrian war. Joulani received support and funding from ISI and Baghdadi.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... ror-jihadi

$1:

One of Saddam Hussein’s former intelligence officers masterminded Islamic State’s takeover of northern Syria after becoming embittered by the US-led invasion of Iraq, according to a report by the German magazine Der Spiegel

..Bakr was “bitter and unemployed” after the US authorities in Iraq disbanded the army by decree in 2003, the article says. Between 2006 to 2008 he was reportedly in US detention facilities, including Abu Ghraib prison.

“All the decision makers are Iraqi, and most of them are former Iraqi officers. The Iraqi officers are in command, and they make the tactics and the battle plans,” he said. “But the Iraqis themselves don’t fight. They put the foreign fighters on the front lines.”
The raw cruelty of Hussein’s Baathist regime, the disbandment of the Iraqi army after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, the subsequent insurgency and the marginalization of Sunni Iraqis by the Shiite-dominated government all are intertwined with the Islamic State’s ascent, said Hassan Hassan, a Dubai-based analyst and co-author of the book “ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror.”

“A lot of people think of the Islamic State as a terrorist group, and it’s not useful,” Hassan said. “It is a terrorist group, but it is more than that. It is a homegrown Iraqi insurgency, and it is organic to Iraq.”

The de-Baathification law promulgated by L.­ Paul Bremer, Iraq’s American ruler in 2003, has long been identified as one of the contributors to the original insurgency. At a stroke, 400,000 members of the defeated Iraqi army were barred from government employment, denied pensions — and also allowed to keep their guns.

The U.S. military failed in the early years to recognize the role the disbanded Baathist officers would eventually come to play in the extremist group, eclipsing the foreign fighters whom American officials preferred to blame, said Col. Joel Rayburn, a senior fellow at the National Defense University who served as an adviser to top generals in Iraq and describes the links between Baathists and the Islamic State in his book, “Iraq After America.”

The U.S. military always knew that the former Baathist officers had joined other insurgent groups and were giving tactical support to the Al Qaeda in Iraq affiliate, the precursor to the Islamic State, he said. But American officials didn’t anticipate that they would become not only adjuncts to al-Qaeda, but core members of the jihadist group.

[Islamic State appears to be fraying from within]

“We might have been able to come up with ways to head off the fusion, the completion of the Iraqization process,” he said. The former officers were probably not reconcilable, “but it was the labeling of them as irrelevant that was the mistake.”

Under the leadership of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the Islamic State’s self-proclaimed caliph, the former officers became more than relevant. They were instrumental in the group’s rebirth from the defeats inflicted on insurgents by the U.S. military, which is now back in Iraq bombing many of the same men it had already fought twice before.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mi ... story.html

[BartSimpson]

BRAH BRAH:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

If Saddam Hussein were still in power and Iraq hadn't been turned into a Somalia-like failed state, there would be no ISIS.

The creation of ISIS came from the Syrian Civil War and a failed like Somilia like state would be Libya thanks to Barry and Hillary.

The creation of ISIS came from the Arab Spring and the revolt in Tunisia. Iraq was more or less in a status quo up until the energized Muslim Brotherhood arose from the Arab Spring and then begat ISIS.

The remnants of Al Qaeda then rallied under ISIS.

Prior to the advent of ISIS the US withdrew from the region leaving a power vacuum and then the US exacerbated the problem by providing weapons to the groups that became ISIS.

This was done in a clumsy act of geopolitics that expected the ISIS antecessors would be friendly to the US and would help overthrow the Assad regime in Syria which is friendly to Russia. And that bit of drama has to do with Saudi Arabia wanting to build a gas pipeline across Syria to send gas to Europe - something that will blunt Russian economic and political power in Europe.

ISIS, Syria, Kurds, Turkey, Shia, etc...all pawns in another fucking game of chess between East and West.

[BRAH]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

The creation of ISIS came from the Arab Spring and the revolt in Tunisia. Iraq was more or less in a status quo up until the energized Muslim Brotherhood arose from the Arab Spring and then begat ISIS.

The remnants of Al Qaeda then rallied under ISIS.

Prior to the advent of ISIS the US withdrew from the region leaving a power vacuum and then the US exacerbated the problem by providing weapons to the groups that became ISIS.

This was done in a clumsy act of geopolitics that expected the ISIS antecessors would be friendly to the US and would help overthrow the Assad regime in Syria which is friendly to Russia. And that bit of drama has to do with Saudi Arabia wanting to build a gas pipeline across Syria to send gas to Europe - something that will blunt Russian economic and political power in Europe.

ISIS, Syria, Kurds, Turkey, Shia, etc...all pawns in another fucking game of chess between East and West.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

That's just plain false. I mean for Crissakes, the founder of ISIS is named al-Baghdadi which means "From Baghdad"

ISIS rose to power from Syria splitting from the rebels and if Iraq wasn't invaded Saddam was still in power there still would have been an ISIS because Al Qaeda wasn't going to be the number one Islamic Extremist group forever.

There's also an overdue Civil War in the Middle East being played out right now which Assad and Saddam wouldn't have been able to contain forever. When ISIS went into Iraq it wasn't challenged because of the huge political mess Maliki created which was pointed out eariler.

[Thanos]

The thing to remember is that it isn't the moral duty of the United States or any other Western country to repeatedly prevent, at their own overwhelming cost, that civil war from finally happening. Seriously, who here really cares if the Saudis and Iranians finally go at it and burn each other to a crisp? Both of them are equally the West's enemies. Fuck, it let the whole damn lot of them destroy each other. And if the Russians or Chinese are stupid enough to get involved then let them get dragged down into it as badly as the British had been and as badly as the Americans currently are.

[BartSimpson]

Thanos Thanos:

The thing to remember is that it isn't the moral duty of the United States or any other Western country to repeatedly prevent, at their own overwhelming cost, that civil war from finally happening. Seriously, who here really cares if the Saudis and Iranians finally go at it and burn each other to a crisp? Both of them are equally the West's enemies. Fuck, it let the whole damn lot of them destroy each other. And if the Russians or Chinese are stupid enough to get involved then let them get dragged down into it as badly as the British had been and as badly as the Americans currently are.

Likewise, I don't really care to see American blood spilled for Muslims who'd just as soon kill us the first chance they get.

[Thanos]

The greatest obscenity about current American foreign policy is that it's your young men dying for these vile assholes and it's your money being wasted when it could be used to help American citizens instead of lining the pockets of politicians like Maliki or any of the dozens of Saudi dilettante princelings. That nest of neo-con rats in DC that've been so damn successful in convincing American politicians that the United States is obligated to intervene and interfere in that part of the world for the rest of forever should all be hunted down and strung up from the lamp-posts for what they've done to your country.

[andyt]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

andyt andyt:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

If Saddam Hussein were still in power and Iraq hadn't been turned into a Somalia-like failed state, there would be no ISIS.

But, how long could Saddam stay in power? Dictatorships tend to go south all of a sudden. Of course in that case the US would not be wearing the mess, certainly not to the same degree.

Well there were no signs he was about to leave anytime soon and anyway it's not a foregone conclusion that ISIS would have come along had Saddam departed office at a different time under different circumstances

There would have been a civil war, likely with terrorist orgs getting involved.

[andyt]

Thanos Thanos:

The greatest obscenity about current American foreign policy is that it's your young men dying for these vile assholes and it's your money being wasted when it could be used to help American citizens instead of lining the pockets of politicians like Maliki or any of the dozens of Saudi dilettante princelings. That nest of neo-con rats in DC that've been so damn successful in convincing American politicians that the United States is obligated to intervene and interfere in that part of the world for the rest of forever should all be hunted down and strung up from the lamp-posts for what they've done to your country.

Well, if we don't fight them over there, we'll just have to fight them here. Dat's da truf.

[BeaverFever]

andyt andyt:

There would have been a civil war, likely with terrorist orgs getting involved.

Why do you say that? There's no way to predict what would've happened or how or even when it would've ended. Bloodless coup, family heir, baath party simply picks new dictator...

[andyt]

I think Iraq was ready to go, especially if Saddam went. That huge Shia mass in the south, with Iran supporting it, I don't think could remain stable for long.

[BeaverFever]

There's nothing new about any of that however.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

$1:

Emma Sky: Why Iraq is the 'worst strategic failure since the foundation of the United States'

What? Even worse than their failed invasion of Canada in 1812?

[BartSimpson]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

$1:

Emma Sky: Why Iraq is the 'worst strategic failure since the foundation of the United States'

What? Even worse than their failed invasion of Canada in 1812?

Our invasion of Canada in 1812 was most definitely NOT a failure! Despite the fact of you people humiliating our troops in several battles and despite the fact that you burned our capitol to the ground, at the end of the war you hosers were forced to keep Quebec and for us that counts as a victory!

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

$1:

Emma Sky: Why Iraq is the 'worst strategic failure since the foundation of the United States'

What? Even worse than their failed invasion of Canada in 1812?

Our invasion of Canada in 1812 was most definitely NOT a failure! Despite the fact of you people humiliating our troops in several battles and despite the fact that you burned our capitol to the ground, at the end of the war you hosers were forced to keep Quebec and for us that counts as a victory!

Yes, but we captured Detroit and in what was probably the greatest bit of foresight in history, gave it back to you guys. And you suckers took it