[Regina]

andyt andyt:

A 3 year old?

Gunnair says the prognosis is for 75% cure (cancer free after 5 years). But as I posted, chemotherapy has it's own risks, including death.

This girl can't be allowed to decide for herself. Somebody with more wisdom than Regina tho, needs to make that decision. One who can do more than calculate odds. In the end that would be a judge I guess. IF they can even get the girl, since she's on a res.

Thanks for licking the windows Forest.

[Gunnair]

PostFactum PostFactum:

Gunnair Gunnair:

How has that worked with your kids?

I don't mean all actions, but this can be understood. Thanks to heaven, I don't have kids with this disease.

So...my point would be that are not debating from a point if experience here. I am.

A 10 year old is not a rational creature. Allowing them to make life or death decisions is tantamount to giving them a driver's licence, allowing them to decide age if consent, or giving them the vote.

[Khar]

Below is just my opinion.

wildrosegirl wildrosegirl:

Regina Regina:

wildrosegirl wildrosegirl:

That's your opinion and that would be your choice. It shouldn't necessarily be imposed on everyone.

Yes. Good of you to put aside proven science and go with feelings. Not my opinion at all just proven educated fact.

Based on what you've chosen to read and believe. Nothing wrong with that, but there's a big world out there and you don't know everything. Not all of us are content with narrow minded blinders. Good of you to be.

On my uncle's mantle, there sits a horse statue.

It's not very big; maybe a foot tall. It's light grey, and is a horse rearing into the sky. It's made from clay, water, a few additives, and the ashes of my aunt's corpse. She, like you, presented blinders as being present on those who criticized her for choosing "alternative" medicine. As if she could see more of the world than those around her, because she was "more open-minded." Open-minded is to keep in mind that the world is full of possibilities, not to wilfully blind one's self to the world of realities it shares.

In reality, such beliefs tend to exist in those who want to ignore the big tumor in the room. Her cancer could not be put into remission by St Johns wort. A coffee enema will not help her "digest" the tumor. In the end she was forced to accept, as she gradually weakened and began to have bouts of extreme pain, that maybe using medicine -- medicine developed using the scientific method resulting in something greater than a placebo effect that has an actual chance (and yes, sometimes it doesn't, but at least that chance exists) of curing her -- might have given her a chance to see her son getting wed (this past summer) or her favourite niece go off to university.

Instead her remains stay ensconced in a clay prison standing sentinel over a household she is no longer part of. She is displayed as the rearing horse of her dream, forever frozen by the inevitable realities she ignored that caught up with her.

Open-mindedness that ignores evidence in this case leads only to harmed. Choose to believe those who have died in similar situations are walking, talking and happy if you wish to ignore reality. Soon this girl shall be among them, assuming the government does not intervene. A government doesn't get to have that choice. They don't get the chance to let people smack around their children all day because that's how the parents believe good children are raised. They don't get to ignore people murdering others "for the good of the country." It doesn't matter what you belief to be right if what that believe causes is death and harm on others without due cause or purpose.

Right now, that death is going to be on the hands of the mother, father, and native community who are trying to turn this into a racial issue, when children's organizations across Europe and North America would be doing it for people of any race or background. As the article pointedly states at the end, this is not without precedence in Canada. That native community is looking at the mirage of an imaginary '40s or '50s on the horizon while ignoring the death rate of the 1100's coming up from behind them.

This girl has a solid chance of survival with modern medicine. Chemotherapy is an intensive, painful and at times horrific process, but we use it because literally nothing else helps at that point and death by cancer is not much better. The big difference there being that death by cancer is death; chemotherapy has a good chance to saving this girl's life. Minimalize the statistics all you want, blind yourself all you want, but they exist and should not be forgotten. This girl has a chance of a life long lived and her parents have chosen to squander it for her.

This is not a terminally ill child. Terminally ill children will die regardless of what medical intervention is performed. End of life decisions matter when someone is terminally ill and will die soon (and they are simply choosing when they are going to die) and that distinction is important here. This isn't some form of mild euthanasia. This isn't someone being saved from a life of pain for certain. This is someone who has a good chance of living and moving on and living a life; this is assisted suicide.

We limit the choice of parent's when they begin to harm the chance of life of their children. Just as we took away children from Lev Tahor, we should be able to take children from parents who do such ridiculous things as "faith healing," or take children and put them on a path that drastically increases their chances of death.

Finally, I agree with Gunnair. Children can understand pain, but they are not rational actors. They don't know what to do with that understanding. She will feel better off the chemotherapy until the cancer has gone far enough that it is a foregone conclusion that it will kill her, and then she will be back where she started until she dies.

I guess it's just me, wildrosegirl, but I guess my narrow blinded eyes only see a girl who is inevitably going to die in pain at the will of her parents without government intervention. I can't imagine what context or wonderful wide world you can weave about that, but that one part of it will be in misery and my own mind, "narrowly," won't find joy in that.

[Brenda]

$1:

This is not a terminally ill child. Terminally ill children will die regardless of what medical intervention is performed. End of life decisions matter when someone is terminally ill and will die soon (and they are simply choosing when they are going to die) and that distinction is important here. This isn't some form of mild euthanasia. This isn't someone being saved from a life of pain for certain. This is someone who has a good chance of living and moving on and living a life; this is assisted suicide.

I agree wholeheartedly with you here.

[Freakinoldguy]

I just started reading the thread but one thing started to bother me. So if it's been brought up I apologize but:

How can you treat a disease that was completely undiagnosed and unknown when this "traditional" medicine was being developed? It's like saying we can treat aids with bloodletting because it's a traditional medicine even though nobody knew WTF aids was back in the middle ages.

This whole thing is ridiculous and is eventually going to cost this child her life and for what. So some fucking asshole can say that she died "traditionally" like a real Native.

[sandorski]

BRAH BRAH:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Your mother, of course, is not a ten year old minor.

Chemo is so toxic I can understand their reaction, though. The poor little kid.

Why should the parents be forced to put their child through chemo if another alternative is available? Sometimes the arrogance of doctors is what pushes people to seek a different kind of treatment.

Regina Regina:

Probably? What makes you think that?

My aunt also had it used Western medicine and died within two years.

Can you show this "alternative"?

[martin14]

Khar Khar:

On my uncle's mantle, there sits a horse statue.

Fine.


You go tramping on to the reservation, and explain all that to the child, the parents, the chiefs, and the rest of the community.

"Why whitey is going to take our kids away.... again."

Good luck.

[Jabberwalker]

The history of "whitey taking away native children" is a pretty sordid one and those kids died by the hundreds in various residential schools. These parents are probably twits but so is "whitey" a lot of the time. Whatever it was that we thought we had to offer to the native population, it hasn't worked.

[Gunnair]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

The history of "whitey taking away native children" is a pretty sordid one and those kids died by the hundreds in various residential schools. These parents are probably twits but so is "whitey" a lot of the time. Whatever it was that we thought we had to offer to the native population, it hasn't worked.

For all of the issues that have come, the fact is, that girl would have been dead prior to being able to make the choice about refusing treatment.

[Unsound]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

The history of "whitey taking away native children" is a pretty sordid one and those kids died by the hundreds in various residential schools. These parents are probably twits but so is "whitey" a lot of the time. Whatever it was that we thought we had to offer to the native population, it hasn't worked.

I'm pretty sure everyone understands why the natives would have issue with the idea of "whitey" taking away a child, we can even sympathize with those feelings. But does our empathy mean we should condone letting a 10 year old girl die in pain and suffering?

This isn't a racial issue. The government has stepped in in similar situations with children of all races when their parents were being this irresponsible.

If the natives on the reserve are promising armed resistance if they try to take the little girl, I can see where this is a very tough spot for the government, and I'm not sure what the proper action is. Starting a shooting match over this would be deepply wrong as well. I think perhaps shame is the way to go. These parents and their supporters need to be aware that the country at large will hold them personally responsible when this child dies.

[andyt]

Unsound Unsound:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

The history of "whitey taking away native children" is a pretty sordid one and those kids died by the hundreds in various residential schools. These parents are probably twits but so is "whitey" a lot of the time. Whatever it was that we thought we had to offer to the native population, it hasn't worked.

I'm pretty sure everyone understands why the natives would have issue with the idea of "whitey" taking away a child, we can even sympathize with those feelings. But does our empathy mean we should condone letting a 10 year old girl die in pain and suffering?

This isn't a racial issue. The government has stepped in in similar situations with children of all races when their parents were being this irresponsible.

If the natives on the reserve are promising armed resistance if they try to take the little girl, I can see where this is a very tough spot for the government, and I'm not sure what the proper action is. Starting a shooting match over this would be deepply wrong as well. I think perhaps shame is the way to go. These parents and their supporters need to be aware that the country at large will hold them personally responsible when this child dies.

The natives need to get over themselves. Because they cry racism when FN children are put into foster care with non-natives, many children are hurt or even killed by being put with inappropriate caregivers that happened to be FN. Then of course it's the white man's fault for doing so. How natives can't see this, would rather children suffer for racial correctness is beyond me.

I think this issue is complex tho. The parents don't sound like crazies, they allowed her to get chemo, just stopped it when it affected her so severely. If the parents are to be shamed for doing so and she dies, will we shame the "white man" if she dies from the chemo treatment or just lives with damaged organs for whatever remains of her life? Or just makes her very sick but doesn't cure her and she dies anyway? This isn't a matter of somebody just getting a bit sick and if they stick it out, success is guaranteed.

I might refuse treatment too. I'm an adult that can make that decision. The parents are supposed to be the adults in place for this child to make those sorts of decisions. As a family. They don't sound like loony tunes. A judge should be involved who will talk with this family, and decide if their decision is reasonably rational (best we can hope for) If yes, go with the parent's decision. If no, intervene.

We allow parents to decide if their child will be vaccinated. That may also lead to death of the child, and also affects those around the child if s/he becomes infected. Just a story in the paper about a boy that had chemo, weakening his immune system, so he got very sick with chicken pox, nearly died, because a kid in his class wasn't immunized. Those parents not immunizing are loony tunes, but we allow that.

Supposedly the parents are in discussion with the authorities. The authorities certainly won't be able to just grab the girl. Maybe they can work something out. For the girls sake, I hope so. Glad I'm not the judge that might hear this case.

[martin14]

Unsound Unsound:

This isn't a racial issue. The government has stepped in in similar situations with children of all races when their parents were being this irresponsible.

If the natives on the reserve are promising armed resistance if they try to take the little girl, I can see where this is a very tough spot for the government, and I'm not sure what the proper action is.

Uhh, yes, it is a racial issue, you just defined it.
It isn't just the girl or her family, it's the community and the chiefs, promising
up to the point of guns.

No whitey does this, or has a community to back them up, sorry.

Just let her go, it's what they want, and there is certainly no need to shed blood for this.

[Unsound]

martin14 martin14:

Unsound Unsound:

This isn't a racial issue. The government has stepped in in similar situations with children of all races when their parents were being this irresponsible.

If the natives on the reserve are promising armed resistance if they try to take the little girl, I can see where this is a very tough spot for the government, and I'm not sure what the proper action is.

Uhh, yes, it is a racial issue, you just defined it.
It isn't just the girl or her family, it's the community and the chiefs, promising
up to the point of guns.

No whitey does this, or has a community to back them up, sorry.

Just let her go, it's what they want, and there is certainly no need to shed blood for this.

Sorry, I meant to say it shouldn't be a racial issue. It isn\t on the part of the authorities who are trying to get the girl proper treatment. As you say, it's the natives that are turning it racial for absolutely no good reason.

[Jabberwalker]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

The history of "whitey taking away native children" is a pretty sordid one and those kids died by the hundreds in various residential schools. These parents are probably twits but so is "whitey" a lot of the time. Whatever it was that we thought we had to offer to the native population, it hasn't worked.

For all of the issues that have come, the fact is, that girl would have been dead prior to being able to make the choice about refusing treatment.

I don't believe that her parents have chosen correctly. I also understand that a minor may require intervention from others to protect her interests. I'm just pointing out that this sort of intervention has often gone awry. We don't know everything.

[BRAH]

sandorski sandorski:

BRAH BRAH:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Your mother, of course, is not a ten year old minor.

Chemo is so toxic I can understand their reaction, though. The poor little kid.

Why should the parents be forced to put their child through chemo if another alternative is available? Sometimes the arrogance of doctors is what pushes people to seek a different kind of treatment.

Regina Regina:

Probably? What makes you think that?

My aunt also had it used Western medicine and died within two years.

Can you show this "alternative"?

Obviously they think there's an alternative, but what's more disturbing is how the race baiters are getting revved up for another blame the white-man with demonstrations and blockades. In their defense what else are they supposed to do for the Summer?