[Axeman]

PJB wrote:

Axeman...The point I was trying to make is how far does free education go?

I know what you meant. If you're asking my opinion, I'd say that educating natives has positive external benefits for the nation, so I'm in favour of providing whatever level of education they want.

[Gunnair]

Donny_Brasco wrote:

QBC wrote:

RUEZ wrote:

I agree with Brenda. We either pay for everyone or no one.

Yep, have to agree.

So how do you justify not honouring the contract you signed with us in order to live in this great country?

Is it OK for you to break your forefather’s promises to us?

You may not want to hear this, but since conquest was coming anyway - better with the pen and the liklihood of it being somewhat meaningless, then at the point of a bayonet and getting nothing.

[Gunnair]

Donny_Brasco wrote:

PJB wrote:

Axeman...The point I was trying to make is how far does free education go?

How about when Natives have achieved the same standards of living as non-natives?

That was the spirit of the treaty, to be able to adapt and live in a changing world while still maintaining our identities.

Try adapting and living in the changing world then instead of griping about the past. What has that got you?

[Brenda]

lily wrote:

Donny_Brasco wrote:

Well it is true that Canada has never actually recognized post secondary education as a treaty right.

It is also true that us Natives never interpreted the treaties as surrendering or ceding our territories to the crown, rather it was an agreement to "share".

There have been a number of attempts to erode the spirit of the treaties by the non-aboriginal signatories.

You should try to remember that these treaties/contracts/agreements are legally binding and cannot be changed unilaterally.

That being said - I don’t see how spending less on education just so you can spend more on social programs down the road is going to help anyone.

And here is some free legal advice - pick a fight worth winning and worth losing. If you win this it costs you more down the road, if you lose this you open up a whole new can of worms...

For us if we lose this fight it is not going to be good - less people in school, more people potentially living off of government subsidies for their whole lives. Less role models for the younger generations - and this is SO important because we are the fastest growing portion of the population.

If you win then it just costs you more money in tax dollars down the road. If this ends up in court and you lose then potentially the cost for post secondary grows proportionally to the population - where now there is very limited access and only a few of the people who apply for this funding usually get it.

Nice post, Donny.

Why is it a nice post?
It is discriminatory. Less education overall gives those results, not only for Natives.
Why spend SO much money on 23,500 Natives, when the rest of Canadians have to pay? All or nothing...

[Donny_Brasco]

Gunnair wrote:

You may not want to hear this, but since conquest was coming anyway - better with the pen and the liklihood of it being somewhat meaningless, then at the point of a bayonet and getting nothing.

That may be true, but the Canadians learned from the Americans what the Americans have not learned for themselves over the last few hundred years. Conquering a civilization is expensive, dirty and almost impossible.

Furthermore, we have court systems in place today that will make a decision for us(you and I), regardless of who benefits and who pays. Do you want to be on the losing end of some of those fights? Or should we try to work something out that we can both live with?

[Donny_Brasco]

Brenda wrote:

Why is it a nice post?
It is discriminatory. Less education overall gives those results, not only for Natives.
Why spend SO much money on 23,500 Natives, when the rest of Canadians have to pay? All or nothing...

Well, if we ignore the treaties for a few minutes...

How about understanding that Natives are the poorest people per capita in Canada.

And those Natives are the fastest growing portion of the population.

And that YOU and I are going to pay the social costs of a huge underclass of poor people...

So either we pay a little now and less later. Or we save a few bucks today and pay exponentially later.

[Brenda]

Donny_Brasco wrote:

Brenda wrote:

Why is it a nice post?
It is discriminatory. Less education overall gives those results, not only for Natives.
Why spend SO much money on 23,500 Natives, when the rest of Canadians have to pay? All or nothing...

Well, if we ignore the treaties for a few minutes...

How about understanding that Natives are the poorest people per capita in Canada.

And those Natives are the fastest growing portion of the population.

And that YOU and I are going to pay the social costs of a huge underclass of poor people...

So either we pay a little now and less later. Or we save a few bucks today and pay exponentially later.

I am willing to pay a few bucks into EVERYBODIES post-secondary education. Not only the natives.

How can "the natives" be the poorest? Not every native is poor, or stupid, or undereducated.

[westmanguy]

We all know it isn't right.

Treat everyone equal. Fund everyone's post secondary education, or fund nobodies.

This is why natives face so much discrimination, non-native Canadians get a little PO'ed with the natives getting money thrown at them, and getting a free ride all the time.

I think the Government needs to institute a date to phase out all the treaties and bring all people under equal treatment.

Did you know there is a clause in the Charter that tells the courts to go easy on Natives?

Friggin' ridiculous.

[Donny_Brasco]

Brenda wrote:

I am willing to pay a few bucks into EVERYBODIES post-secondary education. Not only the natives.

You already do. Education is subsidised for everyone except foreign students. K-12 is "free" for everyone.

[Brenda]

Donny_Brasco wrote:

Brenda wrote:

I am willing to pay a few bucks into EVERYBODIES post-secondary education. Not only the natives.

You already do. Education is subsidised for everyone except foreign students. K-12 is "free" for everyone.

Then why spend another $72,000/native student?

(K-12 is not really post-secondary, is it?)

[Donny_Brasco]

westmanguy wrote:

We all know it isn't right.

Treat everyone equal. Fund everyone's post secondary education, or fund nobodies.

This is why natives face so much discrimination, non-native Canadians get a little PO'ed with the natives getting money thrown at them, and getting a free ride all the time.

I think the Government needs to institute a date to phase out all the treaties and bring all people under equal treatment.

Did you know there is a clause in the Charter that tells the courts to go easy on Natives?

Friggin' ridiculous.

I agree. That is why I am totally for Canadians paying fair market value for the land they have taken from the natives under treaty...

That is the same treatment that any other land owner would get regardless of race, religion, ect, ect, ect...

Except your argument for equal treatment does not really account for treating the Natives equally, does it?

We have treaties with many other countries that pre-date agreements with the Natives...and Canada still honours those.

I'm all for being equal, pay for what you got and we'll move along together. That was the point in the first place.

[Donny_Brasco]

Brenda wrote:

Donny_Brasco wrote:

Brenda wrote:

I am willing to pay a few bucks into EVERYBODIES post-secondary education. Not only the natives.

You already do. Education is subsidised for everyone except foreign students. K-12 is "free" for everyone.

Then why spend another $72,000/native student?

(K-12 is not really post-secondary, is it?)

That number makes no sense. I'd have to see where it came from and what it means.

And yes, k-12 is not post secondary. You got me there.

[Brenda]

Donny_Brasco wrote:

Brenda wrote:

Donny_Brasco wrote:

You already do. Education is subsidised for everyone except foreign students. K-12 is "free" for everyone.

Then why spend another $72,000/native student?

(K-12 is not really post-secondary, is it?)

That number makes no sense. I'd have to see where it came from and what it means.

And yes, k-12 is not post secondary. You got me there.

That number is the $1.7 billion devided by 23,500 Native students, as I have stated in (I think) my second post on this thread.

Oh, it was my 1st post

[Axeman]

Another point worth considering is the very way in which Native education is handled. Native education is a Federal matter, while non-native education is Provincial. This is written right into the Constitution.

[herbie]

How come none of you are arguing for free post secondary education for everyone?
That's "equal".
What's wrong with you?