[PJB]

Pretty much...Just kidding!

Does anyone know how many Federal and Provincial programs there are that are geared towards getting natives into the workforce? Here in Saskatchewan I know of at least three provincially funded programs that are strictly for natives.

[jason700]

PJB wrote:

All I question is Donny's integrity. This topic was about education grants for First Nations students and as usual Donny has taken it over and changed it to one of what we owe natives. It is typical of him.

If the topic is education grants for first nations students then why are we so fixated on "genocide". I don't agree with Donny saying it, and he shouldn't have said it, but he brought up many other points throughout this thread which have way more to do with the topic. Why aren't you disputing those?

I question YOUR integrity because this all seems like an opportunistic character attack that has hijacked this thread. I'd like to see it get back on topic.

[PJB]

jason... I am not questioning the on-topic posts that Donny has written as he makes some valid points. When he stays on topic he is a good poster. He tends to get rattled often and goes off-topic.

If you noticed I just posted a question that is on the topic and I would like to see it get back to the topic at hand as somewhere out there someone might have some good ideas regarding this situation.

[jason700]

PJB wrote:

jason... I am not questioning the on-topic posts that Donny has written as he makes some valid points. When he stays on topic he is a good poster. He tends to get rattled often and goes off-topic.

If you noticed I just posted a question that is on the topic and I would like to see it get back to the topic at hand as somewhere out there someone might have some good ideas regarding this situation.

Sorry... I only noticed after I posted. Thanks.

[jason700]

I DO have a question for Donny though...

Do you feel that natives in Canada would be willing to take part in a deal with the Canadian government in which the long-term goal would be equality?

[Dayseed]

Lily,

Don't say the Canadian government didn't care if there were different cultures, it's completely wrong and ignorant of you. The treaties signed by the government were negotiated with individual tribes and/or nations. If they didn't "care", then one treaty would be sufficient for all Indians from the government's perspective.

And let's not play the terminology game. If you believe that people can use the term genocide by their own rules, then people can use the term pedophile or rapist in the same fashion. Can I call you an academic rapist or historical pedophile?

[Dayseed]

lily wrote:

You can call me whatever you like, Dayseed.... haven't you noticed by now that insults over the internet just don't matter?

Go ask CanadianJeff about that. He flips out.

Quote:

Apples and oranges though. When the gov't rounded up the kids they were looking to erase their culture from their lives..... languages, traditions, etc. They weren't thinking each individual culture.... it was all blanketed under "not ours".

I'm not going to try to defend the Gradual Civilization Act or any successive Act after that. I agree, it was a dispicable practice.

Quote:

And even if I'm not articulate enough to state things "just so", I always thought you were smart enough to discern what people were getting at.

Argue THAT.

That's simple. If you'd quit being an intellectual pederast or raping your responsibility to present your ideas clearly and effectively, you'd realize that I'm not the only person perusing this forum and/or thread. If your ideas aren't accessible to the average person, especially if that's through inarticulation, you may fail to advocate a new position to somebody who hasn't thought of it that way.

Also, people think in language. Therefore, the quality of your thoughts can only be as good as the quality of the language in which you present them. Inarticulate language to describe an idea necessarily results in a diminished idea. You're failing yourself by not ensuring your ideas are precise.

Actually, I think I'm going to enjoy accusing people of intellectual rape. I guess that takes me out of the running to bitch about the term cultural genocide...

[Gunnair]

jason700 wrote:

PJB wrote:

All I question is Donny's integrity. This topic was about education grants for First Nations students and as usual Donny has taken it over and changed it to one of what we owe natives. It is typical of him.

If the topic is education grants for first nations students then why are we so fixated on "genocide". I don't agree with Donny saying it, and he shouldn't have said it, but he brought up many other points throughout this thread which have way more to do with the topic. Why aren't you disputing those?

I question YOUR integrity because this all seems like an opportunistic character attack that has hijacked this thread. I'd like to see it get back on topic.

Sorry, but spirited debate was ambushed by Donny dropping G bombs to silence the debate with a heaping helping of race guilt. Whatever potential legitimate points he made, he wiped out with that.

Get your facts straight.

[Donny_Brasco]

jason700 wrote:

Do you feel that natives in Canada would be willing to take part in a deal with the Canadian government in which the long-term goal would be equality?

Sure.

But every time we try to sit down as equals and talk about our future together the typical ethnocentric views, similar to those of PJB and Mustang, seem to abound.
There is no forum for negotiations if the people talking think we are conquered or think that our connection to this land is some false sense of entitlement.
Those views prevent any of us from being treated as equals because those were not the original spirit and intent of the treaties and not the real history of this country.

Furthermore, considering the history of white people when it comes to signing contracts and abiding by their obligations of the agreement, any deal would have to be explained to the First Nation population and accepted by them.
Unilaterally saying that funding for post-secondary education is going to end does not show us that you want to treat us as equals. It shows contempt for us, for the agreements you have signed with us, and leaves a bad taste in our mouths for working with you for a better tomorrow for all Canadians.

Our forefathers agreed that if our people are going to survive in the changing world then we have to learn the information and technology that the white people knew. In exchange for signing the treaty documents the Crown promised that our people would have access to the education that would allow our people to participate in a changing world.

If you read the history of this country you will recognize that white people, after signing the treaties, did not really want to share and participate in building this country as equals. You will see that we were not allowed to farm and sell our produce in the open market, get credit, hire lawyers to protect our interests...We were not allowed to buy or use the most modern technology to farm with, we were not even allowed to leave our reserves without the permission of the Indian agent, , butcher our livestock without the permission of the Indian agent or chop trees to heat our houses without the permission of the Indian agent.
You will note that there are various other colours and creeds of people who suffered similar barriers to becoming equal citizens to regular white European Canadian immigrants to North America.

So when you say “equals” like you’re telling me that you are going to further dictate our future, well then you are SOL. If you mean equals like you know the history of Canada and are willing to work with us to raise our standard of living, increase our participation rates in schools and the workplace, recognize your obligations and the SPITIT AND INTENT of the treaties – then I am sure you will get buy in from many, many First Nations people.

[CommanderSock]

We took their land. We forced them into an un-natural position of inferiority; into a life they had no interest in living. The tribes did not care about land ownership, mortgages, banks, etc. We forced them to live by our rules, and marginalized them if they objected. We continue to force them to abide by the laws that have governed Europeans. Laws based on a culture completely alien to the natives (Canada, America, Argentina (who exterminated theirs when they got tired of trying), Australia, South America (extreme poverty)) the list goes on.

Maybe they were never meant to assimilate. Maybe these people have no interest in wanting to live the European style livelihood. Maybe they don't want a 9-5. Who's to say but them?

Free education was the least we could do to help those who wish to assimilate in Canada's Euro-descended general society.

Canada's reserves look worse than rural Africa. We continue to dictate how much they can fish, hunt, gather, where they can and can't cross, and at our convenience, when we need land, we scuttle them off.

The least we could do is offer those who wish free education.

[herbie]

lily wrote:

You can call me whatever you like, Dayseed.... haven't you noticed by now that insults over the internet just don't matter?

Apples and oranges though. When the gov't rounded up the kids they were looking to erase their culture from their lives..... languages, traditions, etc. They weren't thinking each individual culture.... it was all blanketed under "not ours".

And even if I'm not articulate enough to state things "just so", I always thought you were smart enough to discern what people were getting at.

Argue THAT.

k...
The intent was to give them an education and a chance to adapt, 'erasing their culture' was only an affect of that intent. Not that some of those in charge didn't subvert it to that... and we're getting nailed for the fuckers that did shit like that. It would have cost dick shit to send a couple elders to each residential school and round things out.

And when you think about the costs of post-secondary, tally in the fancy office of bilingual whites in Ottawa or some other big city earning $100,00+ who run the program. Office rent, equipment, phones copiers, faxes, staff, overhead etc.
Oh and that's a federal job. You have to be bilingual... english AND french. So if Billy Sam wants to work in the office that determines his own people's future he has to be TRILINGUAL, cuz even in 2009 his own language doesn't count.
Keep them roadblocks coming, begrudge what little they get and convince yourselves it's their own fault.

[StuntmanMike]

Donny_Brasco wrote:

If you read the history of this country you will recognize that white people, after signing the treaties, did not really want to share and participate in building this country as equals. You will see that we were not allowed to farm and sell our produce in the open market, get credit, hire lawyers to protect our interests...We were not allowed to buy or use the most modern technology to farm with, we were not even allowed to leave our reserves without the permission of the Indian agent, , butcher our livestock without the permission of the Indian agent or chop trees to heat our houses without the permission of the Indian agent.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of fairness in them would deny there were monstrous injustices over the centuries. But I think most of those issues have largely been addressed in the last few decades.

Natives are no longer subject to discriminatory laws, enjoy access to numerous government programs and funds to help them advance themselves, and the racism that was at times quite prevelant in society has diminshed, and even disappeared. So much so that politicians and businesses are eager to place natives who have the skills into high-profile positions, as we just saw with Brazeau's appointment to the Senate.

I think all of those are positive developments.

Quote:

You will note that there are various other colours and creeds of people who suffered similar barriers to becoming equal citizens to regular white European Canadian immigrants to North America.

True. The Chinese and South Asian communities were subject to rampant discrimination at different times in our history. But those groups have, within a generation or two, caught up with, and even surpassed the socio-economic levels enjoyed by whites.

The same can't be said of natives. Why is that? After all, they've been the benificiaries of far more funding and government initiatives to improve their lot than any other group.

It's not because they're dumber than other races. It's not because they're lazier. And it's not because they're subject to more discrimination.

I would suggest it has to do with a reserve system that ensures many natives reside in isolated, economically stagnant communities where the only source of income is government hand-outs. This just breeds a culture of defeat.

Unfortunately, some of the biggest proponents of the status quo are found amongst the native community.

Quote:

So when you say “equals” like you’re telling me that you are going to further dictate our future, well then you are SOL. If you mean equals like you know the history of Canada and are willing to work with us to raise our standard of living, increase our participation rates in schools and the workplace, recognize your obligations and the SPITIT AND INTENT of the treaties – then I am sure you will get buy in from many, many First Nations people.

This "us and them" mentality is part of the problem. For the sake of all Canadians, Natives need to be brought into wider Canadian society so they can fully participate. As long as some native leaders maintain that they are separate "Nations", subject to different laws, customs, traditions and procedures than everyone else, that won't happen. And natives will continue to suffer as a result.

[Gunnair]

StuntmanMike wrote:

Donny_Brasco wrote:

If you read the history of this country you will recognize that white people, after signing the treaties, did not really want to share and participate in building this country as equals. You will see that we were not allowed to farm and sell our produce in the open market, get credit, hire lawyers to protect our interests...We were not allowed to buy or use the most modern technology to farm with, we were not even allowed to leave our reserves without the permission of the Indian agent, , butcher our livestock without the permission of the Indian agent or chop trees to heat our houses without the permission of the Indian agent.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of fairness in them would deny there were monstrous injustices over the centuries. But I think most of those issues have largely been addressed in the last few decades.

Natives are no longer subject to discriminatory laws, enjoy access to numerous government programs and funds to help them advance themselves, and the racism that was at times quite prevelant in society has diminshed, and even disappeared. So much so that politicians and businesses are eager to place natives who have the skills into high-profile positions, as we just saw with Brazeau's appointment to the Senate.

I think all of those are positive developments.

Quote:

You will note that there are various other colours and creeds of people who suffered similar barriers to becoming equal citizens to regular white European Canadian immigrants to North America.

True. The Chinese and South Asian communities were subject to rampant discrimination at different times in our history. But those groups have, within a generation or two, caught up with, and even surpassed the socio-economic levels enjoyed by whites.

The same can't be said of natives. Why is that? After all, they've been the benificiaries of far more funding and government initiatives to improve their lot than any other group.

It's not because they're dumber than other races. It's not because they're lazier. And it's not because they're subject to more discrimination.

I would suggest it has to do with a reserve system that ensures many natives reside in isolated, economically stagnant communities where the only source of income is government hand-outs. This just breeds a culture of defeat.

Unfortunately, some of the biggest proponents of the status quo are found amongst the native community.

Quote:

So when you say “equals” like you’re telling me that you are going to further dictate our future, well then you are SOL. If you mean equals like you know the history of Canada and are willing to work with us to raise our standard of living, increase our participation rates in schools and the workplace, recognize your obligations and the SPITIT AND INTENT of the treaties – then I am sure you will get buy in from many, many First Nations people.

This "us and them" mentality is part of the problem. For the sake of all Canadians, Natives need to be brought into wider Canadian society so they can fully participate. But by maintaining that they are separate "Nations", subject to different laws, customs, traditions and procedures than everyone else, that won't happen.

Seperate but equal, eh? Heard of that before...

[Brenda]

Like Shep used to say... (Or was it Mustang?)
Some are just not as equal as others

[StuntmanMike]

Gunnair wrote:

Seperate but equal, eh? Heard of that before...

After re-reading my post, I realize I may have given a different impression than I intended. I've re-written the final line to clarify my position.

I'm not saying natives should be separate. I'm trying to say the exact opposite. I'm saying many of their leaders are still trying to encourage a form of sovereignty, and I don't think that works for them or anyone else, as evidenced by the disgraceful rates of poverty, social disfunction and unemployment we've seen.