[StuntmanMike]

Gunnair wrote:

Seperate but equal, eh? Heard of that before...

After re-reading my post, I realize I may have given a different impression than I intended. I've re-written the final line to clarify my position.

I'm not saying natives should be separate. I'm trying to say the exact opposite. I'm saying many of their leaders are still trying to encourage a form of sovereignty, and I don't think that works for them or anyone else, as evidenced by the disgraceful rates of poverty, social disfunction and unemployment we've seen.

[Axeman]

When a system doesn't work, and hasn't worked for 200 years or more, then no matter WHAT side you're on, you have to admit that what we're doing isn't working. Time to try some new ideas.

[Biblical_Christian]

Why does the non native want education so called free? The Land that was ceded by US, should be good enough. Thats worth trillions upon trillions of dollars. Buncha greedy bums anyways.

[StuntmanMike]

Axeman wrote:

When a system doesn't work, and hasn't worked for 200 years or more, then no matter WHAT side you're on, you have to admit that what we're doing isn't working. Time to try some new ideas.

Fair point. But it's easy to point out the errors. What do you propose as a solution?

[StuntmanMike]

Biblical_Christian wrote:

Why does the non native want education so called free? The Land that was ceded by US, should be good enough. Thats worth trillions upon trillions of dollars. Buncha greedy bums anyways.

They're not "greedy bums." That's an ignorant comment. There are momentous problems facing Canada's natives, and not all of them are beyond the control of those natives to solve.

But calling all natives "greedy bums" is neither accurate, nor particularily intelligent.

[Brenda]

I think he called "the whites" greedy bums...

[Gunnair]

StuntmanMike wrote:

Gunnair wrote:

Seperate but equal, eh? Heard of that before...

After re-reading my post, I realize I may have given a different impression than I intended. I've re-written the final line to clarify my position.

I'm not saying natives should be separate. I'm trying to say the exact opposite. I'm saying many of their leaders are still trying to encourage a form of sovereignty, and I don't think that works for them or anyone else, as evidenced by the disgraceful rates of poverty, social disfunction and unemployment we've seen.

No, I understood - it's a seperate but equal - the irony being it's the minority that wants it, not the majority.

[Axeman]

StuntmanMike wrote:

Axeman wrote:

When a system doesn't work, and hasn't worked for 200 years or more, then no matter WHAT side you're on, you have to admit that what we're doing isn't working. Time to try some new ideas.

Fair point. But it's easy to point out the errors. What do you propose as a solution?

Dude, if I had THAT answer, I'd be at my mansion in the Bahamas. I know that I grew up near Casino Rama and when I was a kid, Rama was like the South Bronx, people huddling about around fires in oil barrels, tin shanty homes, etc. Now, it has a Community Centre, Police and Fire departments, new homes, jobs. I'm not saying gambling is the key, but a modern, community-centred, community-administered economic base is ABSOLUTELY necessary. If an educated native population can find those economic activities that will save and modernize their communities, then I'm all in favour at throwing tax dollars at native post-secondary education.

[StuntmanMike]

Axeman wrote:

Dude, if I had THAT answer, I'd be at my mansion in the Bahamas. I know that I grew up near Casino Rama and when I was a kid, Rama was like the South Bronx, people huddling about around fires in oil barrels, tin shanty homes, etc. Now, it has a Community Centre, Police and Fire departments, new homes, jobs. I'm not saying gambling is the key, but a modern, community-centred, community-administered economic base is ABSOLUTELY necessary. If an educated native population can find those economic activities that will save and modernize their communities, then I'm all in favour at throwing tax dollars at native post-secondary education.

You and I agree on the central thesis of this thread. I've got no problem with post secondary education subsidies for natives. If that helps them break out of the trap, then that benefits everyone.

But every native community in Canada can't just open a casino like Rama did. Firstly, there's only so many casino's that the market will bear.

Secondly, the most desperate native communities in Canada are located in isolated areas where a casino wouldn't even be an option (who the fuck is going to spend 9 hours on a train to Pikangikum to go gamble?)

Personally, I think the answer lies in getting them out of those hell-holes and into larger urban centres where people have the opportunity to develop their full potential.

Donny may disagree with me.

[Brenda]

If and when you do that, they have to leave "their land". And have nothing left to complain, other than the fact "they were forced to become like whites".

[Axeman]

StuntmanMike wrote:

You and I agree on the central thesis of this thread. I've got no problem with post secondary education subsidies for natives. If that helps them break out of the trap, then that benefits everyone.

But every native community in Canada can't just open a casino like Rama did. Firstly, there's only so many casino's that the market will bear.

Secondly, the most desperate native communities in Canada are located in isolated areas where a casino wouldn't even be an option (who the fuck is going to spend 9 hours on a train to Pikangikum to go gamble?)

Personally, I think the answer lies in getting them out of those hell-holes and into larger urban centres where people have the opportunity to develop their full potential.

Donny may disagree with me.

I agree, they can't ALL have casinos, but I've heard of a band in B.C. that is working on developing a fishery. I think they even gave up some of their status rights in exchange for start-up capital. (we'd need a BC source or a little research on that case study). If those natives in the most remote areas are unable or unwilling to develop some sort of modern economic activity in those communities, then I don't have a solution. But I can certainly see that the status-quo (no pun intended) is benefitting neither the Native community nor the non-Native community.

[StuntmanMike]

Brenda wrote:

If and when you do that, they have to leave "their land". And have nothing left to complain, other than the fact "they were forced to become like whites".

The government gave the Kasechewan band the option of moving to Timmins, a town of 60 000 about 4 hours south.

They rejected it by a vote of 95% and demanded the government build them a better community in their isolated, miserable hovel.


http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story ... 7666161a93

This, more than anything, sums up the culture of defeat and dependency that has destroyed native communities over the decades.

[Axeman]

lily wrote:

We could start by questioning WHY the system doesn't work. My guess is it was set up to fail from the start.

Well, let's answer that question then. WHY doesn't it work?

[StuntmanMike]

lily wrote:

We could start by questioning WHY the system doesn't work. My guess is it was set up to fail from the start.

I don't think it's been a deliberate attempt at failure, but that's been the result.

If you look at those native communities that are close to large urban centres, you'll find they generally do quite well. If you look at their more isolated counterparts, you'll find they've been a disaster.

Our forebears thought the answer was to take the kids away, put them in English style boarding schools and breed the native out of them.

That didn't quite work out.

So now, everyone wants to avoid the obvious.

I'll say it though.


ISOLATED NATIVE COMMUNITIES WITHOUT ECONOMIC OPPORUNITIES ARE BREEDING GROUNDS FOR NEPOTISM, SEXUAL ABUSE, ALCHOLISM AND UNEMPLOYMENT!

I think the answer is to get native communities to move towards the economic opportunities available in cities and away from their unproductive reserves.

That may sound paternalistic, but the human species has followed economic opportunities in the form of herds, agriculture and trade for thousands of years and did quite well at it.

Natives could do the same.

[Axeman]

StuntmanMike wrote:

I don't think it's been a deliberate attempt at failure, but that's been the result.

If you look at those native communities that are close to large urban centres, you'll find they generally do quite well. If you look at their more isolated counterparts, you'll find they've been a disaster.

Our forebears thought the answer was to take the kids away, put them in English style boarding schools and breed the native out of them.

That didn't quite work out.

So now, everyone wants to avoid the obvious.

I'll say it though.


ISOLATED NATIVE COMMUNITIES WITHOUT ECONOMIC OPPORUNITIES ARE BREEDING GROUNDS FOR NEPOTISM, SEXUAL ABUSE, ALCHOLISM AND UNEMPLOYMENT!

I think the answer is to get native communities to move towards the economic opportunities available in cities and away from their unproductive reserves.

That may sound paternalistic, but the human species has followed economic opportunities in the form of herds, agriculture and trade for thousands of years and did quite well at it.

Natives could do the same.

Isolated communities without economic opportunities are breeding grounds for nepotism, sexual abuse, alcoholism and unemoployment.... you didn't need the word "native" in your phrase.