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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:47 pm
 


<strong>Title: </strong> <a href="/link.php?id=21190" target="_blank">Gas prices spike across Canada</a> (click to view)

<strong>Category:</strong> <a href="/news/topic/14-misc-cdn" target="_blank">Misc CDN</a>
<strong>Posted By: </strong> <a href="/modules.php?name=Your_Account&op=userinfo&username=tritium" target="_blank">tritium</a>
<strong>Date: </strong> 2007-05-02 19:44:10
<strong>Canadian</strong>


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:47 pm
 


Nationalize the opil industry and open up more refineries here in Canada.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:51 pm
 


I particilarily like this:
Quote:
"We're probably too nice in Canada," he said.

"We don't see riots. I don't know at what figure Canadians turn nasty."

Keep up these prices in Canada (the second country with oil reserves) and you will see riots. WTF am I wasting my tax dollars on the damn oil sands project for?


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:11 pm
 


tritium wrote:
Nationalize the opil industry and open up more refineries here in Canada.



Or, let the free market do its job and eventually consumption will fall, decreasing demand, decreasing prices.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:33 pm
 


free market ? :lol: ummm is that why the price in the US is not great ?

I don't know if I agree with tritium either ...it sounds good but both the socialists and capitalists have had their chance . People are being tossed out on the streets for Gas prices because everybody has to raise theres to survive . I just hope that when I wake up in the morning the news will show road blocks littered all over the country including the transcanada and border crossings going into the US . :twisted:


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:38 am
 


toothpick wrote:
tritium wrote:
Nationalize the opil industry and open up more refineries here in Canada.



Or, let the free market do its job and eventually consumption will fall, decreasing demand, decreasing prices.


I'd agree with you if there was a free market. Unfortunately the oil companies are light years beyond Enron when it comes to manipulating the market. Example: a refinery burns down in Rumania and the price of north american gas rises expotentially. This is oil from a country that doesn't export it to us, manufactured in a refinery that doesn't supply us, so the logic of price increases here seems a little mystifying. Big oil continually has a mryiad of excuses as to why the prices are so high, you know the usual ones.

We're changing over from heating oil to gasoline(ahh this happens every year.... plan for it)
There is a high demand for gas (most buisnesses don't increase their prices when sales increase??)
We shut down some refineries for maintenance (seen Enron)
There is tension in the middle east (this isn't news is it it's being going on for hundreds of years)
Price increases reflect expectations of future scarcity relative to demand and risk. (now they can foretell the future)
and last but not least:
Comic actor Tom Poston dies in LA at 85.

Tbe oil companies like to point out how much we pay in taxes for a litre of gas, but after watching the news last night you have to wonder who does the books for them. All the big oil companies posted huge profits over last quarter. I think it's time we faced reality. As long as Big oil runs the US government we can expect obscene profits for oil companies and high prices for consumers. These latest rounds of price hikes are simply being used to condition we peasants to this fact.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:50 am
 


hehehehe, The Nigeria kidnappings are an excuse to increase prices here, but so are the high costs of getting the oil out if the Canadian Oil sands by Shell ;-)

When will the colour of my hair become an excuse? ROTFL


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:23 am
 


Freakinoldguy wrote:
Example: a refinery burns down in Rumania and the price of north american gas rises expotentially. This is oil from a country that doesn't export it to us, manufactured in a refinery that doesn't supply us, so the logic of price increases here seems a little mystifying.


It is quite simple really. They will have to purchase their shortfall from a supplier who does sell to the USA thereby decreasing the availability of reserves and driving up the price for everyone.

As for Trits idea: No new refinery has been built in North America since 1976 and there is a good reason for that; there is not enough sweet light crude available to process. Existing refineries are running at capacity but the mature fields of North America cannot supply more then 75% of demand and it is widely presumed in the oil industry that secretive Middle East/OPEC oil reserves are grossly over exaggerated. This shortfall is made up through the importation of crude but that market is currently in decline. In a nutshell, you're wasting your time and money building a refinery because you'll never find the crude to crack in it.

There has been 4 billion barrels of oil in the history of the Earth. 2 Billion are in light crude, 1 Billion in oil sands and another billion in oil shale. Of the 2 billion in light crude it took the world 125 years to go through the first billion and it is expected to take about 30 years to burn through the remainder. It takes about 1 unit of energy to recover 32 units from light crude. (1:32) but oil sands have a ratio of closer to 1:2 thereby driving up global prices as oil sands derived energy increases as a share of global energy consumption. Also, there is no known viable technology to recover oil shale yet.

As global fields mature and production steadily declines we are also paradoxily faced with increased demand for oil from the emerging economies of Asia and as their wealth and purchasing power increases they are able to more effectively compete with Canadians in bidding on the dwindling oil supplies. There are a lot new wealthy Chinese with almost 1 million new cars being added to their roads every year. They are happy to outspend you for their chance to buy the same oil.

As for answers to the question of nationalisation of the industry one need look no further then California to see the folly. Its problems are blamed on deregulation but that is a misnomer. Only wholesales markets were deregulated because energy suppliers such as Canadians were no longer willing to guarantee low prices when other markets and their consumers were willing to pay more. Where California failed is by continuing to regulate the consumer price so there was no reason for the average person to reduce consumption during shortfalls and at the same time actually continued to increase demand each year by 6% (largely to support the computer industry). When there was a 5% shortfall in supply to the California market but Californian users didn't have to pay a corresponding increase it took a 400% wholesale price increase to force utilities to institute roving blackouts to meet the shortfall. Another great example is Ontario whose provincial utility pays no tax yet has subsidised cost to the tune of 30 billion in debt for Ontario taxpayers, lip service paid to alternative energy and threats by the Energy Minister that unless Ontarians stop converting their houses to electric baseboard heat to escape deregulated natural gas they will start raising rates. Contrast this to Alberta where rates are only marginally higher, there is no government liable debt and the utilities actually pay income tax to the provincal and federal governments. (The only jurisdiction to do so) Basically it is counter productive to have government set the price at say .50 a litre but you now have to go on a month long waiting list to purchase a tank of fuel. No supply/demand issue in history has ever been resolved through government price controls. These increases will be an incentive to invest in alternative energy sources that will ultimately benefit mankind.

Welcome to the global "Peak Oil" scenario that was estimated to hit the world between 2005-2010.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:55 pm
 


Quote:
Or, let the free market do its job and eventually consumption will fall, decreasing demand, decreasing prices.


deregulate so oil companies can build more refineries, and if ethanol is such a good thing end programs that develope "farmer owned plant" I just want fuel I don't need the means of fuel production no matter what those Lenninists in Regina think.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 3:15 pm
 


Knoss wrote:
deregulate so oil companies can build more refineries, and if ethanol is such a good thing end programs that develope "farmer owned plant" I just want fuel I don't need the means of fuel production no matter what those Lenninists in Regina think.


You can build a thousand more refineries but if your producing fields are declining everyday it will not solve the problem. Building more refineries is like buying more stoves to cook your only potroast.

Also, ethanol is a very poor choice as it actually consumes more energy to produce then you recover. Right now the USA government subsidises the corn we purchase from them so the feedstock price is right but once the American start to care the ethanol market will not survive the price correction.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 3:32 pm
 


grainfedprairieboy wrote:
Knoss wrote:
deregulate so oil companies can build more refineries, and if ethanol is such a good thing end programs that develope "farmer owned plant" I just want fuel I don't need the means of fuel production no matter what those Lenninists in Regina think.


You can build a thousand more refineries but if your producing fields are declining everyday it will not solve the problem. Building more refineries is like buying more stoves to cook your only potroast.

Also, ethanol is a very poor choice as it actually consumes more energy to produce then you recover. Right now the USA government subsidises the corn we purchase from them so the feedstock price is right but once the American start to care the ethanol market will not survive the price correction.



maybe Bush could block oil from Canada and we could just not worry about them and go for a drive :wink: we'll be driving gas powered vehicles well into the future while mericanos are bicycling .

"Not for Sale" :D


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:00 pm
 


Quote:
grainfedprairieboy

Also, ethanol is a very poor choice as it actually consumes more energy to produce then you recover. Right now the USA government subsidises the corn we purchase from them so the feedstock price is right but once the American start to care the ethanol market will not survive the price correction.[/quote]

I'm not up on this subject at all, but we are getting North America's largest ethanol / biodiesel refinery, being built in Central Alberta, they will be using wheat and canola. Does your opinion remain the same with this process, GF?


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:10 pm
 


Alta_redneck wrote:
Quote:
grainfedprairieboy

Also, ethanol is a very poor choice as it actually consumes more energy to produce then you recover. Right now the USA government subsidises the corn we purchase from them so the feedstock price is right but once the American start to care the ethanol market will not survive the price correction.


I'm not up on this subject at all, but we are getting North America's largest ethanol / biodiesel refinery, being built in Central Alberta, they will be using wheat and canola. Does your opinion remain the same with this process, GF?[/quote]

Canola is a far better choice and has a positive energy recovery factor and as for yield per acre beats soya by 20-35%. Problem is that even if every acre in NA was planted in canola we still wouldn't meet our energy needs. I also find it disturbing when we are so desparate we need to start using food as fuel.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:04 pm
 


blah blah blah , "blah " blah blah and blah blahed blablah


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:08 pm
 


toothpick wrote:
tritium wrote:
Nationalize the opil industry and open up more refineries here in Canada.



Or, let the free market do its job and eventually consumption will fall, decreasing demand, decreasing prices.

Not going to happen. Oil is not an endless supply.

You could argue that the oil companies do not want oil consumption to increase, thereby extending the length of time that they have a commodity to sell while continuing to raise the price. If they sell it all now for $60 a barrel they won't have any to sell for $120 a barrel in 20 years.


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