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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:57 am
 


Title: History teacher wants Indigenous view added to offensive Old Montreal plaque
Category: History
Posted By: Hyack
Date: 2018-03-10 17:12:47
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:57 am
 


Why don't we just throw out all the history books and let the natives write new ones. I am sure we will get a truthful, balanced account of what actually happened way back before any of us were born. /s


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:49 am
 


It's just like the Cornwallis controversy in Nova Scotia. Why did he place a bounty on natives? They were killing settlers.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:53 pm
 


No no no no no. Natives are always only the victims. Whites are always only the perpetrators. That is the only allowable history as decided by our ruling class. Get it together, people, or it's dismissal from your employment and then off to the re-education & apology camp, err, school for you.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:30 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
Get it together, people, or it's dismissal from your employment and then off to the re-education & apology camp, err, school for you.


Yeah, with special drama classes led by a special substitute teacher.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:31 am
 


Okay, devil's advocate time (again):

This Michael Rice guy isn't talking about removing or erasing the European settlement history of the area. He just wants some additional context given to it. With John A. Macdonald, for instance, for all his accomplishments his actions also made life hell for Indigenous people. And it's one thing for us to insist that Indigenous people should respect the Treaties...when our own implementation of them has been shit and there are many parts of Canada where no Treaty was signed, such as Montreal and almost all of B.C., so the land title issue is still up in the air there.

I've been wrestling with this issue for a while now, and I've written about it before on CKA. It's one thing for me to be told I have no right to take pride anything about my history and heritage, and I oppose that as much as anyone. But at the same time, it's important-especially in Canada-to try and better understand the other side of the story.

It's the same thing in understanding why Albertans like Thanos and Bootlegga are so pissed off with B.C.'s opposition to pipelines being built through their territory. To people outside Alberta, it just looks like we want to force other people to accept the risk of pipeline spills while we get to collect all the money. OTOH, Albertans are more concerned about their livelihoods and believe that the pipeline can bring a lot of economic benefits not just to them but the whole country.

And while British Columbians are pilloried as eco-nuts (and people like Mike Hudema, my former Students Union President in my university days, don't help with that) people there are also concerned about how spills could affect their livelihoods in the fisheries, farming, etc.

That's why the Indigenous side of things is worth considering too. Again, Rice isn't advocating taking down the plaque, just adding some additional context. There's still a lot of things people don't get about Indigenous issues in Canada, and they need to be heard. It's not about shaming our heritage, but getting a better understanding of it.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:39 am
 


The problem though is that is always turns into shaming and accusations of endless collective guilt, even if it starts with the best of intentions. You can get a betting pool started when the first slur of "settlers" gets said out loud, or a sign with "Canada - YOUR home on Native land" being displayed front and centre. These kinds of provoking pissant insults aren't a matter of if but of an assured when. Start with insults and millions of ears turn away because whatever reconciliation or whatever is being attempted is basically sabotaged.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:55 am
 


Thanos wrote:
The problem though is that is always turns into shaming and accusations of endless collective guilt, even if it starts with the best of intentions. You can get a betting pool started when the first slur of "settlers" gets said out loud, or a sign with "Canada - YOUR home on Native land" being displayed front and centre. These kinds of provoking pissant insults aren't a matter of if but of an assured when. Start with insults and millions of ears turn away because whatever reconciliation or whatever is being attempted is basically sabotaged.

R=UP


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:24 am
 


JaredMilne wrote:
Rice isn't advocating taking down the plaque, just adding some additional context.


And what context would that be ? Testimony from the chief who died, saying
'hurr de durr, whitey didn't kill me I wuz eaten by a bear ?

Or, as usual, I suspect, it's going to be a lot more

settlers settlers, we didnt sign no agreement, whitey bad.

No thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:27 am
 


JaredMilne wrote:
Okay, devil's advocate time (again):

This Michael Rice guy isn't talking about removing or erasing the European settlement history of the area. He just wants some additional context given to it. With John A. Macdonald, for instance, for all his accomplishments his actions also made life hell for Indigenous people. And it's one thing for us to insist that Indigenous people should respect the Treaties...when our own implementation of them has been shit and there are many parts of Canada where no Treaty was signed, such as Montreal and almost all of B.C., so the land title issue is still up in the air there.

I've been wrestling with this issue for a while now, and I've written about it before on CKA. It's one thing for me to be told I have no right to take pride anything about my history and heritage, and I oppose that as much as anyone. But at the same time, it's important-especially in Canada-to try and better understand the other side of the story.

It's the same thing in understanding why Albertans like Thanos and Bootlegga are so pissed off with B.C.'s opposition to pipelines being built through their territory. To people outside Alberta, it just looks like we want to force other people to accept the risk of pipeline spills while we get to collect all the money. OTOH, Albertans are more concerned about their livelihoods and believe that the pipeline can bring a lot of economic benefits not just to them but the whole country.

And while British Columbians are pilloried as eco-nuts (and people like Mike Hudema, my former Students Union President in my university days, don't help with that) people there are also concerned about how spills could affect their livelihoods in the fisheries, farming, etc.

That's why the Indigenous side of things is worth considering too. Again, Rice isn't advocating taking down the plaque, just adding some additional context. There's still a lot of things people don't get about Indigenous issues in Canada, and they need to be heard. It's not about shaming our heritage, but getting a better understanding of it.


If Canadians are to understand Indigenous issues then we need to need be all inclusive in speaking or writing about our history. Ignoring the fact that some native peoples were killing settlers, burning villages, and creating all kinds of mayhem is also a part of it and one that is continually downplayed or completely discounted by some of the Indigenous community.

Listening to what some Indigenous people are saying about how wonderful their lives were before the 'white man invaded' when in fact they were anything but is yet another fallacy that needs refuting. Living in a dank stinking smoke-filled pit house was not the utopian life some would have us believe. I know for a fact that the folks living in modern housing on our local reserve are very grateful.

For all the vitriol being spouted by some Indigenous people, there are thousands of others just getting on with their lives, thankful that they have the opportunity and making the most of it.

BTW, not all BCers are eco-nuts. Those of us living in the Interior have an entirely different take on the pipeline issue and most of us are in total agreement with Rachel Notley taking action against our wrong-minded leftie government.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:03 pm
 


JaredMilne wrote:
It's the same thing in understanding why Albertans like Thanos and Bootlegga are so pissed off with B.C.'s opposition to pipelines being built through their territory. To people outside Alberta, it just looks like we want to force other people to accept the risk of pipeline spills while we get to collect all the money. OTOH, Albertans are more concerned about their livelihoods and believe that the pipeline can bring a lot of economic benefits not just to them but the whole country.

And while British Columbians are pilloried as eco-nuts (and people like Mike Hudema, my former Students Union President in my university days, don't help with that) people there are also concerned about how spills could affect their livelihoods in the fisheries, farming, etc.


From my POV, it has very little to do with the economy.

The federal government - the only government with authority over inter-provincial and international trade - has authorized the pipeline expansion, so BC needs to just deal with it.

As I said, imagine if Alberta suddenly tried to regulate Class 1 rail lines in Alberta (CN & CP Rail) - we'd be flying in the face of the Constitution and it'd be illegal as hell. BC tried to do the same exact thing and they needed to be taken to task for it.

Sure, the economy and the use of fossil fuels on the West Coast support the pipeline expansion, but the fact is BC has ZERO authority to do what they tried to do.

But if you want to talk economics, BC (and the lower mainland) creates literally tens of thousands of jobs by using fossil fuels from Alberta.

They use them to operate YVR, heat their homes, run their transit buses, ship food and consumer goods, and all sorts of other activities that generate billions of dollars of economic activity. Shut down YVR and the tourism industry in Vancouver disappears. Shut down diesel deliveries and their is no tofu or coffee in the grocery stores and a lot fewer transit buses on the road. And so on...

The truth is if they couldn't get our fossil fuels, they'd buy them from someone else (which ironically would come by tanker) so their economy wouldn't grind to a halt.

The hypocrisy is that the far left refuse to acknowledge these simple facts, just like the far right refuse to acknowledge facts on all sorts of other issues.




JaredMilne wrote:
That's why the Indigenous side of things is worth considering too. Again, Rice isn't advocating taking down the plaque, just adding some additional context. There's still a lot of things people don't get about Indigenous issues in Canada, and they need to be heard. It's not about shaming our heritage, but getting a better understanding of it.


As long as there is balance, I'm all for it. However, IMHO the pendulum has swung too far the other way.

In theory, I agree, but the problem is too many Indigenous people are so pissed off at whitey for past indignities that I'm automatically guilty crimes against humanity just because of my skin colour - irregardless of whether I'm a nice guy or the biggest racist this side of Donald Trump.

Sorry, but I had nothing to do with residential schools, the 60s Scoop, or anything else. And guess what, neither did my ancestors, so I refuse to buy into some BS white guilt syndrome.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:05 pm
 


Mowich wrote:
BTW, not all BCers are eco-nuts. Those of us living in the Interior have an entirely different take on the pipeline issue and most of us are in total agreement with Rachel Notley taking action against our wrong-minded leftie government.


I'm well aware of this - when I speak of 'eco-nuts', I'm speaking of the 20% or so of Lower Mainland residents who are Green Party/Leap Manifesto NDP types.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:21 pm
 


ShepherdsDog wrote:
It's just like the Cornwallis controversy in Nova Scotia. Why did he place a bounty on natives? They were killing settlers.


But just a couple of weeks ago you thought it was fine that a white guy killed a native guy who was causing problems on his land.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:38 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
The problem though is that is always turns into shaming and accusations of endless collective guilt, even if it starts with the best of intentions. You can get a betting pool started when the first slur of "settlers" gets said out loud, or a sign with "Canada - YOUR home on Native land" being displayed front and centre. These kinds of provoking pissant insults aren't a matter of if but of an assured when. Start with insults and millions of ears turn away because whatever reconciliation or whatever is being attempted is basically sabotaged.


Mowich wrote:
If Canadians are to understand Indigenous issues then we need to need be all inclusive in speaking or writing about our history. Ignoring the fact that some native peoples were killing settlers, burning villages, and creating all kinds of mayhem is also a part of it and one that is continually downplayed or completely discounted by some of the Indigenous community.


Yeah, but the some needs to be emphasized here. Thanos and others have commented on how bad Doug Ford makes conservatives look. Well, it's the same thing with some of the Indigenous radicals out there. And there are plenty of jackasses out there that make us look bad to Indigenous people-if there weren't, then why exactly did Brad Wall, a guy not known for his progressive street cred, have to take to social media to ask people to lay off the racist shit after Colten Boushie was killed?

And as for us being called "settlers", non-Natives have called Indigenous people everything from Indians to Natives to Aboriginals to plain savages. So why can't Indigenous people have a term for the rest of us? Settler should apply to people of colour too-I don't agree with the notion that you can't call black people settlers because of slavery, not when so many people are coming from places like Africa and Jamaica voluntarily and it's impossible to distinguish them from the descendants of slaves without asking nosy, rude personal questions.

bootlegga wrote:
The hypocrisy is that the far left refuse to acknowledge these simple facts, just like the far right refuse to acknowledge facts on all sorts of other issues.


I agree with you about the pipeline thing-I was just citing your and Thanos's previous comments as examples of how other people judge us as Albertans without considering our POV. Same with Michael Rice in this case, especially when he was clear he didn't want the statue or the plaque taken down-he just wanted some more context.

bootlegga wrote:
As long as there is balance, I'm all for it. However, IMHO the pendulum has swung too far the other way.

In theory, I agree, but the problem is too many Indigenous people are so pissed off at whitey for past indignities that I'm automatically guilty crimes against humanity just because of my skin colour - irregardless of whether I'm a nice guy or the biggest racist this side of Donald Trump.

Sorry, but I had nothing to do with residential schools, the 60s Scoop, or anything else. And guess what, neither did my ancestors, so I refuse to buy into some BS white guilt syndrome.


Well, the pendulum swinging too far the other way is something that I've tried to counter with writings like my opposing the taking down of statues of people like Macdonald, and my reminding everyone of how problematic it can be to imply that we as non-natives can't take any pride in our own heritage.

But the thing is that those attempts by Indigenous activists and others to remind us of what's happened and is still happening is itself an attempt to balance out the fact that too many people don't know about the schools, the '60s scoop or anything else. And it's not like these things are in the past-I agree with the Indigenous Twitter folks who were wondering if an Indigenous guy would have gotten acquitted so easily if he were the one who shot Gerald Stanley in the same circumstances he shot Colten Boushie. Not bloody likely-the Indigenous guy would likely have been convicted almost immediately. Donald Marshall, for one, was convicted of second-degree murder after one day of trial, and lost more than a decade of his life in prison before he was exonerated.

And while you or I personally didn't have anything to do with the residential schools, or the '60s scoop, our governments made those decisions, and they reflected the pervasive attitudes of many people in society. Unfortunately, those attitudes are still all too common today, as we see with claims that Indigenous people lived in primitive conditions and were killing each other in wars. If we're going to ridicule Indigenous people for that, then why aren't we saying the same thing about Europeans whose housing could be just as bad if not worse, and who butchered each other for centuries in wars even after they started living in North America?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:51 pm
 


JaredMilne wrote:
bootlegga wrote:
Sorry, but I had nothing to do with residential schools, the 60s Scoop, or anything else. And guess what, neither did my ancestors, so I refuse to buy into some BS white guilt syndrome.


And while you or I personally didn't have anything to do with the residential schools, or the '60s scoop, our governments made those decisions, and they reflected the pervasive attitudes of many people in society. Unfortunately, those attitudes are still all too common today, as we see with claims that Indigenous people lived in primitive conditions and were killing each other in wars. If we're going to ridicule Indigenous people for that, then why aren't we saying the same thing about Europeans whose housing could be just as bad if not worse, and who butchered each other for centuries in wars even after they started living in North America?


I didn't vote for those governments.
"our governments", also includes Indians who had the right to vote from 1960,
long before I was born.
It's not ridiculing Indians to speak about their living conditions and warlike tendencies.
It's countering the massive 'noble peaceful environmental savage' lie.

And please stop painting all white people with that big bad whitey brush of yours.


Last edited by martin14 on Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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