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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:09 am
 


Title: Inequality Is Not Inevitable
Category: Economics
Posted By: Goober911
Date: 2014-06-29 13:17:43
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:09 am
 


ersatz capitalism.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:16 am
 


andyt andyt:
ersatz capitalism.


Ersatz reasoning.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:22 am
 


Stiglitz vs Bart - can you spot the real deal?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:26 am
 


Andy, stop masturbating yourself to fantasies of 'equality' that NEVER become reality. People always have different talents, motivations, and abilities and they will always be compensated according to what their labors are worth.

Now stop blaming the world for your shortcomngs and go get a job.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:31 am
 


Did you actually read the article, or are you just spouting shit in a reflexive sort of way? You really can't see any shades between black and white, can you? Probably need glasses.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:36 am
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
People always have different talents, motivations, and abilities and they will always be compensated according to what their labors are worth.


I don't often agree with you, but that hits the nail on the head.

It's why Communism (textbook form, not the cult of personality communism that the USSR/China/NK/etc employed) will never work - human nature.

I'm sure a fair number of people are content with the bare necessities, but there will always be that 10%-30% that wants more and is willing to work harder to get it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:53 am
 


That's your takeaway from the article, is it?

$1:
Over the past year and a half, The Great Divide, a series in The New York Times for which I have served as moderator, has also presented a wide range of examples that undermine the notion that there are any truly fundamental laws of capitalism. The dynamics of the imperial capitalism of the 19th century needn’t apply in the democracies of the 21st. We don’t need to have this much inequality in America.


$1:
Our current brand of capitalism is an ersatz capitalism. For proof of this go back to our response to the Great Recession, where we socialized losses, even as we privatized gains. Perfect competition should drive profits to zero, at least theoretically, but we have monopolies and oligopolies making persistently high profits.
Does that sound like people compensated based on their talents? Sure, their talents for gaming the system. Is that what you want rewarded?

$1:
C.E.O.s enjoy incomes that are on average 295 times that of the typical worker, a much higher ratio than in the past, without any evidence of a proportionate increase in productivity.
How is this rewarding people based on their ability? Their ability to schmooze the compensation committees?


$1:
If it is not the inexorable laws of economics that have led to America’s great divide, what is it? The straightforward answer: our policies and our politics. People get tired of hearing about Scandinavian success stories, but the fact of the matter is that Sweden, Finland and Norway have all succeeded in having about as much or faster growth in per capita incomes than the United States and with far greater equality.



$1:
So why has America chosen these inequality-enhancing policies? Part of the answer is that as World War II faded into memory, so too did the solidarity it had engendered. As America triumphed in the Cold War, there didn’t seem to be a viable competitor to our economic model. Without this international competition, we no longer had to show that our system could deliver for most of our citizens.

Ideology and interests combined nefariously. Some drew the wrong lesson from the collapse of the Soviet system. The pendulum swung from much too much government there to much too little here. Corporate interests argued for getting rid of regulations, even when those regulations had done so much to protect and improve our environment, our safety, our health and the economy itself.

But this ideology was hypocritical. The bankers, among the strongest advocates of laissez-faire economics, were only too willing to accept hundreds of billions of dollars from the government in the bailouts that have been a recurring feature of the global economy since the beginning of the Thatcher-Reagan era of “free” markets and deregulation.



$1:
The American political system is overrun by money. Economic inequality translates into political inequality, and political inequality yields increasing economic inequality. In fact, as he recognizes, Mr. Piketty’s argument rests on the ability of wealth-holders to keep their after-tax rate of return high relative to economic growth. How do they do this? By designing the rules of the game to ensure this outcome; that is, through politics.

So corporate welfare increases as we curtail welfare for the poor. Congress maintains subsidies for rich farmers as we cut back on nutritional support for the needy. Drug companies have been given hundreds of billions of dollars as we limit Medicaid benefits.

The banks that brought on the global financial crisis got billions while a pittance went to the homeowners and victims of the same banks’ predatory lending practices. This last decision was particularly foolish. There were alternatives to throwing money at the banks and hoping it would circulate through increased lending. We could have helped underwater homeowners and the victims of predatory behavior directly. This would not only have helped the economy, it would have put us on the path to robust recovery.
Does this sound like people being rewarded based on their abilities in the workplace?

$1:
OUR divisions are deep. Economic and geographic segregation have immunized those at the top from the problems of those down below. Like the kings of yore, they have come to perceive their privileged positions essentially as a natural right. How else to explain the recent comments of the venture capitalist Tom Perkins, who suggested that criticism of the 1 percent was akin to Nazi fascism, or those coming from the private equity titan Stephen A. Schwarzman, who compared asking financiers to pay taxes at the same rate as those who work for a living to Hitler’s invasion of Poland.
I know Bart is down with these guys, but et tu Boots?

$1:
Our economy, our democracy and our society have paid for these gross inequities. The true test of an economy is not how much wealth its princes can accumulate in tax havens, but how well off the typical citizen is — even more so in America where our self-image is rooted in our claim to be the great middle-class society. But median incomes are lower than they were a quarter-century ago. Growth has gone to the very, very top, whose share has almost quadrupled since 1980. Money that was meant to have trickled down has instead evaporated in the balmy climate of the Cayman Islands.

With almost a quarter of American children younger than 5 living in poverty, and with America doing so little for its poor, the deprivations of one generation are being visited upon the next. Of course, no country has ever come close to providing complete equality of opportunity. But why is America one of the advanced countries where the life prospects of the young are most sharply determined by the income and education of their parents?
You against equality of opportunity too, Boots?

$1:
Among the most poignant stories in The Great Divide were those that portrayed the frustrations of the young, who yearn to enter our shrinking middle class. Soaring tuitions and declining incomes have resulted in larger debt burdens. Those with only a high school diploma have seen their incomes decline by 13 percent over the past 35 years.
THis is your bugbear, Boots. Why whine about it, just a difference in abilities of the students to have wealthier parents, and since those parents got rewarded for their greater contributions, it's all good, right?

$1:
Justice has become a commodity, affordable to only a few. While Wall Street executives used their high-retainer lawyers to ensure that their ranks were not held accountable for the misdeeds that the crisis in 2008 so graphically revealed, the banks abused our legal system to foreclose on mortgages and evict people, some of whom did not even owe money.



$1:
The problem of inequality is not so much a matter of technical economics. It’s really a problem of practical politics. Ensuring that those at the top pay their fair share of taxes — ending the special privileges of speculators, corporations and the rich — is both pragmatic and fair. We are not embracing a politics of envy if we reverse a politics of greed. Inequality is not just about the top marginal tax rate but also about our children’s access to food and the right to justice for all. If we spent more on education, health and infrastructure, we would strengthen our economy, now and in the future. Just because you’ve heard it before doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try it again.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:07 am
 


andyt andyt:
Did you actually read the article


I did read the article. And some of the points are things I've said myself.

I'm all for levelling the pllaying field and for affording equal opportunities to people. But this guy is using those concepts to masque an agenda of imposing equal outcomes.

If you impose equal outcomes all you accomplish is the disincentivizing of the investment of labor or capital. The predictable result of frustrating natural economic processes is universal poverty.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:08 am
 


Bullshit.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:15 am
 


andyt andyt:
Bullshit.


Tovyu mat.

Now, with that out of the way, what part of what I said do you disagree with?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:18 am
 


Stiglitz's agenda.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:24 am
 


“There are two visions of America a half century from now. One is of a society more divided between the haves and the have-nots, a country in which the rich live in gated communities, send their children to expensive schools, and have access to first-rate medical care. Meanwhile, the rest live in a world marked by insecurity, at best mediocre education, and in effect rationed health care―they hope and pray they don't get seriously sick. At the bottom are millions of young people alienated and without hope. I have seen that picture in many developing countries; economists have given it a name, a dual economy, two societies living side by side, but hardly knowing each other, hardly imagining what life is like for the other. Whether we will fall to the depths of some countries, where the gates grow higher and the societies split farther and farther apart, I do not know. It is, however, the nightmare towards which we are slowly marching.”

“The protesters have called into question whether there is a real democracy. Real democracy is more than the right to vote once every two or four years. The choices have to be meaningful. But increasingly, and especially in the US, it seems that the political system is more akin to "one dollar one vote" than to "one person one vote". Rather than correcting the market failures, the political system was reinforcing them.”

“Americans all benefit from the physical and institutional infrastructure that has developed from the country’s collective efforts over generations.”


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:29 am
 


Some people try to help others rise to their level, some people try to pull others down to their level, some never do anything.

Equality is nothing more than a pipe dream where the pipe will eventually become clogged with failed aspirations.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:31 am
 


You can't have equality of opportunity without redistribution of wealth.


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